Expansion ball pulling shoulder back out on Forster FLS Die?

[p5200]

Anyone had this happen using the Forster FLS Dies? I set die to just touch the shell plate. Unless I set it for some cam over it pulls the shoulder out .004-.005" I'm about ready to get a different brand die. I'm thinking the ball pulls it out some everytime its used. Thanks for all input!

 

[Straightshooter1]

Anyone had this happen using the Forster FLS Dies? I set die to just touch the shell plate. Unless I set it for some cam over it pulls the shoulder out .004-.005" I'm about ready to get a different brand die. I'm thinking the ball pulls it out some everytime its used. Thanks for all input!

You might try switching out the Forster expander ball for one that has a more graduated taper. . .???

 

[Straightshooter1]

You might try switching out the Forster expander ball for one that has a more graduated taper. . .???

Expander Balls - Whidden Gunworks

The Whidden Gunworks Expander Balls typically allow the shooter the opportunity to adjust the neck in .001'' increments.

www.whiddengunworks.com

 

[Bill Norris]

Anyone had this happen using the Forster FLS Dies? I set die to just touch the shell plate. Unless I set it for some cam over it pulls the shoulder out .004-.005" I'm about ready to get a different brand die. I'm thinking the ball pulls it out some everytime its used. Thanks for all input!

If it's possible you might try taking the expander ball out and mandrel the necks after sizing.

 

[BoydAllen]

Have you sized a case with the same die setting, but without the expander just to confirm the pull out?

 

[Dan V.]

Have you tried lubing the inside of the case neck?

 

[bozo699]

Anyone had this happen using the Forster FLS Dies? I set die to just touch the shell plate. Unless I set it for some cam over it pulls the shoulder out .004-.005" I'm about ready to get a different brand die. I'm thinking the ball pulls it out some everytime its used. Thanks for all input!

Are you saying you have it set to bump your shoulder and and it’s growing?…..any f/l die will do that if your just using it as a body die but if you have it set to bump your shoulder and it’s still doing that you must have a exorbitant amount force pulling the expander ball back through the neck which would indicate the expander is wayyyy oversized or the die is sizing the neck wayyyyy too much.
Wayne

 

[6Creed73]

Yes, I've had this happen. It's the reason I switched to a mandrel. It can be difficult to prevent it from happening with an expander ball just by its design. The ball pulls up where the neck is the weakest while a mandrel pushes down where the neck is strongest.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

I gave up on the Forster expander. It's position on the stem is critical - and probably within 50 thou, to work correctly. I suggest, that if you need to continue with it, that you adjust one turn at a time , until you find the correct position. To be fair - when it is properly located, which is just north of the breathing hole in the die body, it works very well. I now use a mandrel - but the die body/de-capper is ideal for my neck turned 308.

 

[Fast14riot]

If the die isn't touching the shoulder, its squeezing the brass making it longer or varying the shoulder angle very slightly as it sizes the shoulder-body junction and it will measure longer. I've had this happen with taller than spec shell holders and dies too long.

Screw the die down a little at a time and measure BTS each time. I suspect you will see it get longer, then shorter until it measures same as fired. Thats your zero setting, then adjust die from there. May want to try feeler gauges under the case head to adjust sizing to quickly figure it out without all the lock ring twisting.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Remove expander ball assembly from die
Adjust die for for correct amount of shoulder bump.
Install expander ball assembly
Adjust expander ball so it is somewhere in the center of the case.

Lube case put in press and pull press handle until press ram stops in
full up position and stop, do not move handle.

Screw expander ball up until you feel the ball stop when it makes contact
with the inside of the case neck and stop.

Screw expander ball down away from case neck one full turn and lock it.


This is the best way I have found to adjust a Forster type expander ball, I use the
Forster assy in some RCBS dies it works very well.

 

[Rat Rifle]

This is not peculiar to just Forster Dies. It happen with other dies also. That is why I don’t use pull through expander mandrels. There are better ways to do things.

 

[p5200]

I'm going to try without the expander ball and see what happens. I'll fire a few more rounds to check with. At this time, I'm trying without bumping back as the shoulders did not expand or very little after firing. Thanks for the help folks!

 

[bsekf]

Chuck the stem in your drill press or even an electric drill and polish the expander ball, trying to put a slight taper on the top side and use a little lube.

 

[nmkid]

Chuck the stem in your drill press or even an electric drill and polish the expander ball, trying to put a slight taper on the top side and use a little lube.

I have done this before. I used a very fine flat, file on a drill press. Go very slow, it is very easy to file away too much.

 

[K22]

Lots of good advice.

I agree with post that stated that it would take an extremely over size expander to pull the shoulder out.

Also, as stated previously, if the die is not making contact with the shoulder, the case can be extruded (lengthened). This is easily determined by sizing a case without the expander and measuring before and after with a bump gauge and caliper.

With that said, I believe you can salvage the die in question by the method stated in post #14 if the expander is oversized. I have done this many times for many different calibers. Go slow and check with a micrometer. If fact, since I load for 10 different 223 bolt rifles with a standard RCBS F/L die, I have a set of RCBS expander assemblies sized in .001" increments that I can use with different brands of cases / rifle combo to give me the optimum neck size.

In my experience, all standard expander balls can benefit from polishing even without reduction in diameter. Often polishing the expander button is enough to reduce the drag. I would do this first with very fine grit paper before reducing the diameter.

In addition, I use a nylon brush chucked in a low RMP drill to clean excessive carbon from the inside of the necks before sizing. Lubing inside of the necks will also help although I found this not to be necessary with polished expander buttons.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I set die to just touch the shell plate. Unless I set it for some cam over it pulls the shoulder out .004-.005"

I think there's a good chance the answer is in this statement, fwiw. When sizing, the brass actually gets longer before the shoulder gets touched. I'm going with, you're not actually bumping the shoulders until you have some cam over, or very close.

 

[Webster]

Anyone had this happen using the Forster FLS Dies? I set die to just touch the shell plate. Unless I set it for some cam over it pulls the shoulder out .004-.005" I'm about ready to get a different brand die. I'm thinking the ball pulls it out some everytime its used. Thanks for all input!

I use a Redding type S bushing die. No mandrel or ball needed. A ball pulls outward on the neck and a madrel expands going in. I never liked the idea that a ball or mandrel is hung on a long rod suspended by sloppy threads at the top of the die. Everyone assumes it straigthens out the neck??? I keep everything simple. My rifle shoots under .400" for varmint hunting. I assume when I fire the rifle the neck conforms to an accuractly machined chamber. When I size the bushing should slip over a well centered and aligned neck?

 

[Ledd Slinger]

If they are fired cases, you have to run a nylon brush in the neck with a few passes to smooth out the carbon. Do not chuck the brush in a drill because you don’t want lines in the carbon that are perpendicular to the direction you pull the expander or seat a bullet. Just a few straight up and down passes in the neck by hand is all it takes. Best to use one caliber size or slightly larger brush as well. So if it’s .243”, use a .257” or .264” brush. If it’s .308”, use a 8mm or .338” brush, etc…

I highly recommend using Montana Extreme nylon brushes because they have much stiffer bristles than any other nylon brushes out there. The expander will pass thru way easier which will create a lot less pull on the shoulder. If it’s a bushing die, maybe run a little less neck tension. Tapered expanders, as others have suggested, helps too.

If it still pulls the ball hard thru the neck, that might be an indicator that it’s time to anneal the brass as well.

 

[bozo699]

I'm going to try without the expander ball and see what happens. I'll fire a few more rounds to check with. At this time, I'm trying without bumping back as the shoulders did not expand or very little after firing. Thanks for the help folks!

P5200,
If this is not a bushing die where you can control how much you size your neck it will size your neck to far where you won’t be able to seat your bullet without deforming and or crushing your neck without the expander in place. Or you will need a expander mandrel die but I think you can adjust your die where you don’t push shoulder back yet don’t stretch your case either but if you can’t then buy a lee collet neck die until your cases are fully formed then your Forster die should do you a good job. I guess I’m either lucky or load to hot as I generally don’t have troubles getting my cases fully formed in 1 or 2 firings
Wayne