Expander ball and Bushing
- Thread starter AQC440
- Start date
Ifin you use a bushing die set and don't use the expander ball you need to do your neck sizing in stages of about .003 until you get to the diameter you want. If you use a bushing of the size you want to end up with first, it will collapse the neck below what you want. Clear as mud?
Meat Woman morphed into Dough Lady and had now morphed into PPG,Pistol Packin Granny).
Meat Woman morphed into Dough Lady and had now morphed into PPG,Pistol Packin Granny).
REELDOC, The expander ball is included for those who wish to use the bushing type die without uniforming the brass. The bushing dies should be used with expander ball if shooting brass out of the box, unsorted or not turned.
If you are going to uniform the necks by sorting to .0005" or turning, then by all means use the decapping pin assembly w/o expander.
The correct use is on the Redding site and I will offer a link.
The last 2 points are important.
This taken from Reddings site......
Type S – Neck Bushing Die
The new Type S - Bushing Style Neck Sizing Die provides reloaders with a simple means to precisely control case neck size and tension.
• Uses interchangeable sizing bushings available in .001" increments.
• The adjustable decapping rod allows positioning the bushing to resize only a portion of the neck length if desired.
• Concentricity is enhanced by the ability of the resizing bushing to self-center on the case neck.
• The decapping rod is supplied with a standard size button. This is especially useful for reloaders who are using commercial brass as is.
• A decapping pin retainer is also supplied with all Type S - Bushing Dies. This enables neck sizing without the use of the size button for those who sort and/or turn case necks for uniformity.
If you are going to uniform the necks by sorting to .0005" or turning, then by all means use the decapping pin assembly w/o expander.
The correct use is on the Redding site and I will offer a link.
The last 2 points are important.
This taken from Reddings site......
Type S – Neck Bushing Die
The new Type S - Bushing Style Neck Sizing Die provides reloaders with a simple means to precisely control case neck size and tension.
• Uses interchangeable sizing bushings available in .001" increments.
• The adjustable decapping rod allows positioning the bushing to resize only a portion of the neck length if desired.
• Concentricity is enhanced by the ability of the resizing bushing to self-center on the case neck.
• The decapping rod is supplied with a standard size button. This is especially useful for reloaders who are using commercial brass as is.
• A decapping pin retainer is also supplied with all Type S - Bushing Dies. This enables neck sizing without the use of the size button for those who sort and/or turn case necks for uniformity.
Spotcheck_Billy
I believe that some of the information posted in this thread doesn't tell the whole story accurately. There is nothing wrong with eliminating the expander that comes with the Redding die set when using unsorted or unturned brass. Case necks do NOT have to be turned or sorted if you don't want to as long as you're using decent brass. Crappy brass isn't worth the effort anyhow, IMO 
Inspect the brass for obvious flaws. Make sure that the case oal is uniform and within spec. Run the new case neck into a Sinclair expander mandrel to uniform its diameter and concentricity. Then neck size with the Redding bushing die,and correct size bushing) after you have removed the expander and replaced it with the decapping pin retainer that's supplied with the Redding die. Then chamfer outside of the neck, then the inside, followed by cleaning up the chamfered area with a Scotchbrite pad to remove any burrs. Proceed to prime and load as usual.
One advantage in not using an expander is that you'll avoid the excessive working of the brass that is inherent when an expander is used. I never use expanders and I find that I don't have to trim to length nearly as often. Sometimes never afier the initial trim!
Inspect the brass for obvious flaws. Make sure that the case oal is uniform and within spec. Run the new case neck into a Sinclair expander mandrel to uniform its diameter and concentricity. Then neck size with the Redding bushing die,and correct size bushing) after you have removed the expander and replaced it with the decapping pin retainer that's supplied with the Redding die. Then chamfer outside of the neck, then the inside, followed by cleaning up the chamfered area with a Scotchbrite pad to remove any burrs. Proceed to prime and load as usual.
One advantage in not using an expander is that you'll avoid the excessive working of the brass that is inherent when an expander is used. I never use expanders and I find that I don't have to trim to length nearly as often. Sometimes never afier the initial trim!
I've heard of the phenomenon that Catshooter talks about before. I haven't seen it for myself, but I'll take his word for it--the explanation makes sense.
What defines "crappy" brass? If I have brass that has varying neck thickness between cases, but is very concentric on each case, then I'd call that decent brass. But even that "decent" brass would be problematic to size with a bushing die. The neck tension would vary from case to case unless I sorted them all. The advantage of the expander ball is that I'll get a minimum size from the bushing and then the expander ball will open them back up just a little to ensure that I get a relatively similar neck tension for all the cases. It's nowhere near as good as having uniform neck thickness, but in a lot of cases it's good enough.
Expander balls do not cause excessive working of the brass. Think about it. When you seat the bullet, it's going to move that brass out even further in the same direction whether you use the expander or not. "Excessive" would be using a bushing that was way too small or an FL die that sized the neck way undersize as most of them do--sometimes over .010" too much.
robert
What defines "crappy" brass? If I have brass that has varying neck thickness between cases, but is very concentric on each case, then I'd call that decent brass. But even that "decent" brass would be problematic to size with a bushing die. The neck tension would vary from case to case unless I sorted them all. The advantage of the expander ball is that I'll get a minimum size from the bushing and then the expander ball will open them back up just a little to ensure that I get a relatively similar neck tension for all the cases. It's nowhere near as good as having uniform neck thickness, but in a lot of cases it's good enough.
Expander balls do not cause excessive working of the brass. Think about it. When you seat the bullet, it's going to move that brass out even further in the same direction whether you use the expander or not. "Excessive" would be using a bushing that was way too small or an FL die that sized the neck way undersize as most of them do--sometimes over .010" too much.
robert
Spotcheck_Billy
CatShooter,
No, I did not intend to refer to your post at all.
I was referring to the post that pretty much said that an expander ball had to be used unless the brass was sorted and neck turned. Over the years I've found that to be inaccurate.
I use a Lyman M die to expand a few of my calibers like you do, but I use the Sinclair expander mandrel/die combo for most of them. They both accomplish mostly the same thing, except that the Sinclair setup doesn't offer the ability to slightly bell the case mouth as an option. But I'm sure that you already knew that
-
robert,
You know crappy brass when you see it! I just don't have the time to mess with it for my precision loads.
I've come to the point that I only use Lapua brass for my precision loading. Maybe I've been lucky but none of mine has significantly varying neck thicknesses between cases. But I don't weight sort either! I've found that to be a waste of time for the type of shooting that I do which is mostly F-Class, LR BR, and LR prone. Of course, I use Winchester, IMI, and LC brass for hunting and recreational loads, but my loading methods are different for those purposes.
But let me ask you, why would the use of an expander ball and bushing give you a more uniform neck tension than the use of an expander mandrel and bushing?
In any case, I'll continue to do it my way as I'm sure you'll continue to use your methods. What I intended to point out in my post was the statement that "The bushing dies should be used with expander ball if shooting brass out of the box, unsorted or not turned". In my eyes that is a blanket statement that should be qualified. Many loaders use the expander mandrel and bushing method instead of the expander ball with great results.
No, I did not intend to refer to your post at all.
I was referring to the post that pretty much said that an expander ball had to be used unless the brass was sorted and neck turned. Over the years I've found that to be inaccurate.
I use a Lyman M die to expand a few of my calibers like you do, but I use the Sinclair expander mandrel/die combo for most of them. They both accomplish mostly the same thing, except that the Sinclair setup doesn't offer the ability to slightly bell the case mouth as an option. But I'm sure that you already knew that
-
robert,
You know crappy brass when you see it! I just don't have the time to mess with it for my precision loads.
I've come to the point that I only use Lapua brass for my precision loading. Maybe I've been lucky but none of mine has significantly varying neck thicknesses between cases. But I don't weight sort either! I've found that to be a waste of time for the type of shooting that I do which is mostly F-Class, LR BR, and LR prone. Of course, I use Winchester, IMI, and LC brass for hunting and recreational loads, but my loading methods are different for those purposes.
But let me ask you, why would the use of an expander ball and bushing give you a more uniform neck tension than the use of an expander mandrel and bushing?
In any case, I'll continue to do it my way as I'm sure you'll continue to use your methods. What I intended to point out in my post was the statement that "The bushing dies should be used with expander ball if shooting brass out of the box, unsorted or not turned". In my eyes that is a blanket statement that should be qualified. Many loaders use the expander mandrel and bushing method instead of the expander ball with great results.
My bad. I thought you were referring to Catshooter's post also.
The reason I think the expander ball will give you more uniform neck tension is because it is sizing on the ID of the case. If one piece of brass has a neck thickness .001" greater than another, sizing with the bushing will leave you with an ID .002" smaller,roughly, of course). With the expander ball in place, it'll open it back up the appropriate amount.
With springback and the like, none of this will ever work out as well as it would with uniform brass. And, since the case is unsupported when the expander ball pops through, it can induce runout. But, sometimes, who cares?
If you used an appropriately sized expander mandrel after sizing, you'd get the same effect as the expander ball, but you'd still be subject to some extra runout.
I think I'm going to have to try some of the Lee collet dies for those guns that fall into this category. You don't have an easy way to adjust neck tension, but, from what everyone says, you get a nice straight case.
The reason I think the expander ball will give you more uniform neck tension is because it is sizing on the ID of the case. If one piece of brass has a neck thickness .001" greater than another, sizing with the bushing will leave you with an ID .002" smaller,roughly, of course). With the expander ball in place, it'll open it back up the appropriate amount.
With springback and the like, none of this will ever work out as well as it would with uniform brass. And, since the case is unsupported when the expander ball pops through, it can induce runout. But, sometimes, who cares?
If you used an appropriately sized expander mandrel after sizing, you'd get the same effect as the expander ball, but you'd still be subject to some extra runout.
I think I'm going to have to try some of the Lee collet dies for those guns that fall into this category. You don't have an easy way to adjust neck tension, but, from what everyone says, you get a nice straight case.
Spotcheck_Billy
CatShooter & robert,
I could have been more specific and should have specifically referenced the post that I was referring to.
That one's on me
I could have been more specific and should have specifically referenced the post that I was referring to.
That one's on me
I buy expander for all my comp dies, But I only use them one time with brand new brass to get out all the dings. I run just the ball in then remove the ball and let the bushing do its job. I also remove the balls on all my normal dies. SOme of the balls such as some of my forsters are rough with sharp angles so if I need to inside size I just use tho comp die of the same caliber because the balls are actually round, super smooth and floating.
CatShooter
edpmedic said:
The taper expanders are for enlarging the mouth/neck of a case to the next size.
For example, you use a 22-6mm taper expander to bring the 22-250 case up to 6mm to make the 6mm Walker International.
They are NOT used for regular reloading.
.
CatShooter
edpmedic said:
Though I love Redding dies, the Redding expanders are the worst I have even seen - they are straight cylinders that are a bitch to draw back up through the neck - I have lifted a heavy loading bench off the floor using Redding expanders.
Guess where mine go
I no longer expand with the sizing die - when it is needed, I do it in a separate step with a Lyman "M" die.
It works more better, and my loading bench stays on the floor, where it's supposed to be!!!
.
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