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Excessive Shoulder Setback Risk?

Phil3 said:
jo191145 said:
If I may make a suggestion.

Buy a comparator. With it you'll know exactly what your doing to the headspace of your brass. JMO but all this SAAMI spec stuff is useless once the weapon is in your hands and the chamber has been cut.
Chances are very high, even in an AR you do not want to be sizing your brass down to SAAMI specs.

I have a comparator. This one. http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/bullet-comparator-inserts/sinclair-insert-style-bullet-comparator-prod34014.aspx




It is how I measured the shoulder setback in the first place and know that from fired brass, shoulder setback was on the order of .008" - .009". As I mentioned in the original post, the chamber is 223 Remington minimum SAAMI spec. It is not some loose chamber specific to an AR-15.

Phil


That's cool Phil. I'm no expert on autoloaders of any sort. QUARENTEED 8)

Now allow me to learn along with you because the day is coming I'll need to know this stuff. If you have a true SAAMI minimum spec chamber how did you find a die that will push the shoulders back .008" below SAAMI minimum?
 
I have enough brass for the two rifles to last my shooting demands for a while. 887 cases.

557 Winchester
63 WCC NATO stamp
50 Hornady (ammo not fired)
42 Blackhills
45 PMC
757 Total
This is pretty much all for the AR15.

130 Lapua
This is for a Howa bolt action. I might use some Winchester.

I wonder if I should dump the small numbers of brass. Might confuse the shooting performance and does complicate reloading for sizing the die (not a huge deal).

Phil
 
jo191145 said:
Phil3 said:
jo191145 said:
If I may make a suggestion.

Buy a comparator. With it you'll know exactly what your doing to the headspace of your brass. JMO but all this SAAMI spec stuff is useless once the weapon is in your hands and the chamber has been cut.
Chances are very high, even in an AR you do not want to be sizing your brass down to SAAMI specs.

I have a comparator. This one. http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/bullet-comparator-inserts/sinclair-insert-style-bullet-comparator-prod34014.aspx




It is how I measured the shoulder setback in the first place and know that from fired brass, shoulder setback was on the order of .008" - .009". As I mentioned in the original post, the chamber is 223 Remington minimum SAAMI spec. It is not some loose chamber specific to an AR-15.

Phil


That's cool Phil. I'm no expert on autoloaders of any sort. QUARENTEED 8)

Now allow me to learn along with you because the day is coming I'll need to know this stuff. If you have a true SAAMI minimum spec chamber how did you find a die that will push the shoulders back .008" below SAAMI minimum?

The barrel is Krieger and I has ask them at the time of order for the most accurate chambering. That was a 223 Remington minimum SAAMI spec chamber. A few years later, I checked with them, giving them the barrel serial number to confirm the chambering. They said the chamber was a 223 minimum SAAMI spec chamber, even going so far as to say not to fire 5.56 military ammo in it. So, I am pretty sure the chamber is minimum SAAMI spec.

The die is a Forster full length sizing die in a Forster Co-Ax press. The die does not limit how far the shoulder can be pushed back, the position of the die in the press does. I adjusted mine in the press until I was getting the right sizing...with Winchester brass, but see now the die needs to backed off a bit with the PMC brass for proper shoulder setback.

I hope this makes sense.

Phil
 
Phil3

Some cases headspace on the rim, some cases headspace on their belt, some cases headspace on their shoulder and some cases headspace on their extractor. The last meaning read Hatchers chamber reaming experiment on a M1917 Enfield and how the extractor holds the case against the bolt face.

Right now I have over 450 cases loaded for my AR15s that are .010 shorter than a fired case, when I do shoot them the shoulder will be blown forward and the case will not stretch.

Remove your bolt and stick a empty case under the extractor, how much does the case move between the bolt face and the rear of the extractor?

I cleaned, and resized these cases while my first AR was still on layaway and I did not have any case gauges, the Lee dies were set to cam over for maximum resizing, and the cases ended up .005 shorter than factory ammunition.

After doing some load testing on the short cases I settled on a load of 23.7 grains of H335 and fired 50 rounds without any problems or case stretching.

My first posting wasn't condescending, I was trying to get you to think about head clearance and what is actually excessive head clearance on the military AR rifle.

I have purchased new .243 cases that had the shoulder location .009 shorter than the GO gauge with approximately .011 head clearance and just fired them with a load well below max without problem and "NO" stretching in the web.

When working up a new load and "IF" you start at the suggested starting load your primers will be protruding out the rear of the case by the amount of your cartridges head clearance. As you increase the load at approximately midway between the starting load and max the primers will be flush with the bottom of the case. Normally at this point the case will not stretch and the shoulder will be blown forward. On top of this you have a military designed extractor and you don't have the head clearance that you think you do.
 
Phil3

I have a 30-30 that I have had for over 30 years, the 30-30 is rated for a max chamber pressure of 38,000 cup or 42,000 psi and the primer always protrudes from the rear of the cases. I alway full length resize these cases with the die making hard contact with the shell holder or press cam over and many of these cases I'm reloading are as old as the rife.

P.O. Ackley did an experiment with a 30-30 improved testing bolt thrust in a Winchester 30-30 and removed the locking lug, the cartridge was fired, the case did not stretch or move and the primer only protruded slightly more than normal.

Bottom line, a case will stretch when the chamber pressure reaches the yield strength of the brass, and it will stretch until the rear of the case contacts the bolt face.

On the majority of rifles when fired, the firing pin hits the rear of the case and drives it forward until the shoulder of the case contacts the shoulder of the chamber. This action creates your head clearance or the air space between the rear of the case and the bolt face, this air space causes the case to stretch when the chamber pressure is high enough to cause the brass to stretch.

Many military rifles have extractors designed to prevent the case from moving forward until the case contacts the shoulder of the chamber and this adds a safety margin for cases made on the short side and helps prevent case head separations.

Shoot your short .223 cases and buy a RCBS Case Mastering Gauge and you will never have a case head separation, in over 40 years of reloading I have never had a case failure other than split necks.



If you really want to worry about headspace and head clearance then just buy a British .303 Enfield, when the bolt closes the extractor moves away from the rim and leaves the case unsupported.

Yes I know its a rimed case but look where Remington put the shoulder of the .303 British case.



Below shows you the actual location of the fired shoulder and how far you would push the shoulder of the case back with a full length resizing die. The case pictured was completely full length resized and the case started to separate on the 3rd firing. Therefore your short .223 cases are minor and only require firing at a lower chamber pressure to blow out the shoulder to the correct length.



phil3 at maximum military headspace the Enfield rifle can have .017 head clearance and emergency wartime headspace was .10 more than that, and phil3 you just have a "small minor" problem that can be fixed.

The cases below were full length resized with the die making hard contact with the shell holder or cam over and fired in a new Savage .308 until they failed. No attempt was made for minimum shoulder bump and the dies were adjusted as per the manufactures instructions.



NOTE: Chrome chambers or plated cartridge cases will have "less" case stretch when fired, when I fired my short .223 cases in my mid-length carbine with a chrome chamber at higher chamber pressures than stated above I still did not have any case stretching.



In a Enfield forum a British member got tired of us "Americans" talking about headspace and said to us "Oh just shoot the bloody thing". ;)
 
bigedp51 said:
Phil3


How many reloaders set their dies up as per the instructions and make hard contact with the shellholder or cam over?




[/URL]

In another post I just stated than I have 2 shell holders and one is .020 thinner or shorter than the other. Now that would make a difference. [ I better paint one red ]

Link
 
Link said:
bigedp51 said:
Phil3

How many reloaders set their dies up as per the instructions and make hard contact with the shellholder or cam over?

[/URL]

In another post I just stated than I have 2 shell holders and one is .020 thinner or shorter than the other. Now that would make a difference. [ I better paint one red ]

Link

Link

Did you ever notice when NASA launches a rocket they start with a big number and count down to zero. :o I have one lapped shell holder thats .003 shorter than normal and two sets of shell holders that are .002, .004, .006 .008 and .010 taller than normal. I also have a Lee shell holder for a .223 that was manufactured by them .005 shorter than normal, it has a manilla tag with the string tied through the center hole and the tag is marked "NFG" and it is now in my junk box. ;)

 
243winxb said:
He is using a Forster Co-Ax press.

I'm using the same Rockchucker press I bought in 1973 and don't have a Forster Co-Ax press. What is different about the Forster Co-Ax press?
 
bigedp51 said:
I'm using the same Rockchucker press I bought in 1973 and don't have a Forster Co-Ax press. What is different about the Forster Co-Ax press?
[br]
It does not use shell holders. It has a spring-loaded jaw system. There is an adapter, but most users prefer the "automatic" jaws.
 
sleepygator said:
bigedp51 said:
I'm using the same Rockchucker press I bought in 1973 and don't have a Forster Co-Ax press. What is different about the Forster Co-Ax press?
[br]
It does not use shell holders. It has a spring-loaded jaw system. There is an adapter, but most users prefer the "automatic" jaws.

So Phil3 is younger than I am and has more money to spend on a press, >:( don't tell Phil3 I grew up in Milpitas next door to him when Ike was president and the silicone valley wasn't invented yet. (old Republicans are tight with their money)
 
A lot of things. But, for one, it does not use shell holders. It can, if one desires, but I don't use them. It uses jaws that open when the arm is at its highest point. As soon as you begin to move the arm down, the jaws close around the case head. The jaws also float in a horizontal plane. Size the case, raise the handle, and remove the case. Done. The jaws fit a wide range of cases, but there is a second set of jaws for pretty big stuff. Not hard to change them out.


Phil
 
Phil3 said:
A lot of things. But, for one, it does not use shell holders. It can, if one desires, but I don't use them. It uses jaws that open when the arm is at its highest point. As soon as you begin to move the arm down, the jaws close around the case head. The jaws also float in a horizontal plane. Size the case, raise the handle, and remove the case. Done. The jaws fit a wide range of cases, but there is a second set of jaws for pretty big stuff. Not hard to change them out.


Phil

Do you have the press mounted on springs to make it earthquake proof or is your reloading bench on springs? After spending so much on a press there must be zoning laws to protect it. ::)

My old Rockchucker has a torque limiter for cam over.

 
bigedp51 said:
sleepygator said:
bigedp51 said:
I'm using the same Rockchucker press I bought in 1973 and don't have a Forster Co-Ax press. What is different about the Forster Co-Ax press?
[br]
It does not use shell holders. It has a spring-loaded jaw system. There is an adapter, but most users prefer the "automatic" jaws.

So Phil3 is younger than I am and has more money to spend on a press, >:( don't tell Phil3 I grew up in Milpitas next door to him when Ike was president and the silicone valley wasn't invented yet. (old Republicans are tight with their money)

I am probably older than you think, was a kid when Ike was president, and in CA before Silicon Valley was born. I am tight with money as well, spending wisely (as best as I can) on the quality things where it makes sense and on what is important to me.

Phil
 
bigedp51 said:
Phil3 said:
A lot of things. But, for one, it does not use shell holders. It can, if one desires, but I don't use them. It uses jaws that open when the arm is at its highest point. As soon as you begin to move the arm down, the jaws close around the case head. The jaws also float in a horizontal plane. Size the case, raise the handle, and remove the case. Done. The jaws fit a wide range of cases, but there is a second set of jaws for pretty big stuff. Not hard to change them out.


Phil

Do you have the press mounted on springs to make it earthquake proof or is your reloading bench on springs? After spending so much on a press there must be zoning laws to protect it. ::)

Nah, press and bench are secure and rigid.

The press, when I bought it less than four or so years ago, was not that much. About $240 - $250 I think. I know they are close or are at $300 now. Given how much guns, parts, tools, etc. cost, the additional cost of the Forster was just not that significant...and worth it to me.

Phil
 

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