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Excessive seated bullet runout???

GAnderson

Gold $$ Contributor
Having severe runout problems with Ruger 204 cartridge. I check runout on the neck after running thru FL die and they are virtually .000 to maybe .001 TIR. Using sierra 39gr bullets, when I seat the bullet the bullet runout is .004 to as high as .007 TIR...even the neck runout increases from next to nothing before seating bullet to .004 or more. Every once in a while I will get a loaded cartridge with less than .001 or zero. I have tried 2 different seating dies...rcbs regular seater and rcbs match seater, I float the dies and shellholder to help alignment and nothing seems to help. To let you know, all my other cartridges are loaded in the same manner and I have zero issues with runout on those...223, 223AI, 20Tac, 6mmAI, 243, 20 Blitz, 20VT, 22-250...even range pick up 223 brass for my AR is less than .001 TIR. The brass for the 204 is Winchester...I have tried cleanup turning on the necks and then running them thru the dies and get the necks to less than .001, but when I seat the bullet, it all goes to hell...sometimes they come out fine but most are way out on runout...is it the brass?? Do I need to ream the insides of the necks or what? This happens on new and fired brass...any suggestions would be helpful. I have done this on 2 different presses just to eliminate that as an issue...Redding T7 and RCBS Rockchucker. I am going to try to find some different 204 brass and try it. Thanks

Gene
 
Based upon my personal experience and this is still a work in progress-

You might want to try the Lee four die set. The set goes for about $40. You might be pleasantly surprised at the reduction in TIR when using the neck sizer and then the seater. If you don't like it and can't/won't sell the set, it is the equivalent of a few drinks at a sports bar with a few friends. In the greater scheme of things, not a huge loss.

That being said, I have the RCBS Competition set and the Redding Competition set. I have to wait until Spring to do a definitive test shooting, but so far with the 21st Century concentricity tool, results for Lee look really good.
 
Interesting that you mention the neck itself gets disturbed after seating.. Have you ever tried running a sized case with a known runout value of say .002" into your seating die with no bullet and then measure again afterwards?

If that changes nothing then you can deduce that the die with respect to the body portion is not causing the problem... An over enlarged bore of the seating die where the seating stem rides could be the culprit.. As an aside I have helped a friend with a similar situation where he had an inline seater die of the proper caliber but the stem was for a caliber that was .020" smaller than intended.
It worked but certainly didn't help his seating woes lol.

Good luck.
 
Patch, yes, that is one thing that stands out...I can have a case sized, primed and ready to go...zero to less than .001 TIR on the neck and then when I seat the bullet, not only does the bullet have extreme runout but there is now anywhere from .004 and above runout in the neck...somehow the bullet is not seating straight...either the ID of the neck is off or something is off in both seating dies I have tried. This is only on the 204...all other cartridges that I load are excellant on runout. I haven't run a case in just the seater...I will try that and see if it is changing the neck at all.

Fotheringill, I may have to get another set of dies to try...like I said though...the brass/neck comes out as close to perfect as one can get after sizing...it's just after seating the bullet that neck runout and bullet runout go south.

Bullets are seating nice and smooth without any excessive force...no seater plug "ring" around the bullet...they feel great when seating, but man are they crooked!

Thanks

Gene
 
Well, thanks to Boyd the mystery has been solved...sometimes it is so easy to overlook the obvious. The plastic tip on the 39 sierra was contacting/bottoming out up in the seater stems on both seating dies...I cut off the plastic tips from 5 of these bullets and loaded five cartridges this way and they all had zero to less than .001 TIR!!Thank you Boyd for the PM...I just can't tell you how much I appreciate it. I have been jacking around with this for a week(off and on) and could not come up with anything. Thank you again

Gene
 
What is the diameter of expander you are using?
Diameter of the neck of the FL sizing die?

How do the crooked rounds shoot?

Have you sorted rounds for minimum run out and shot low run out rounds for grouping compared to high run out rounds?

How are you measuring runout?

1. Do you support the case at 2 diameters and measure the run out at the tip of the bullet?
Or
2. Do you support the loaded round at the base and at the tip of the bullet and measure the run out of the bullet adjacent to the neck?

With your run out so large I am guessing #1.
 
See my #5 post...the tips were hitting the stems on both dies... just as Boyd had indicated in a PM to me.

ireload2, yes I am measuring like your #1 says.

rocketron, yes the culprit was that. Thanks to all

Gene
 
GAnderson said:
Well, thanks to Boyd the mystery has been solved...sometimes it is so easy to overlook the obvious. The plastic tip on the 39 sierra was contacting/bottoming out up in the seater stems on both seating dies...I cut off the plastic tips from 5 of these bullets and loaded five cartridges this way and they all had zero to less than .001 TIR!!Thank you Boyd for the PM...I just can't tell you how much I appreciate it. I have been jacking around with this for a week(off and on) and could not come up with anything. Thank you again

Gene
Click to expand...
It always feels good to solve a problem. What is the fix? Do you need a VLD seating stem or what????
 
Bob, I have emailed RCBS to see if they have a different seater stem/plug...haven't heard back from them so I might give them a call. I did take my 20Tac seater stem from a Redding die and it has plenty of "counterbore" that none of my 20cal bullets touches the tip before contacting to ogive...worst case scenerio is that I purchase a redding 204 ruger seating die...$30 bucks. The redding seater plug will not interface with the RCBS die...that is why for experiment sake I cut the tips off of a few bullets to get them to seat off the ogive in the RCBS dies and that defined the problem just as Boyd suggested...they do come out straight now. The only bullet that seats straight with either of my RCBS 204 seater dies is a 32gr Nosler...it contacts the ogive before the tip contacts...35 Bergers, 32 V-max, 40 v-max, 39 sierra, 32 sierra, 40 nosler, 40 BIB, 39 Speer, 40 berger...all of these contact on the tip...if RCBS doesn't have a different plug then I will get the Redding die. I will post if/when I get a response back from RCBS. Thanks

Gene
 
GAnderson said:
Bob, I have emailed RCBS to see if they have a different seater stem/plug...haven't heard back from them so I might give them a call. I did take my 20Tac seater stem from a Redding die and it has plenty of "counterbore" that none of my 20cal bullets touches the tip before contacting to ogive...worst case scenerio is that I purchase a redding 204 ruger seating die...$30 bucks. The redding seater plug will not interface with the RCBS die...that is why for experiment sake I cut the tips off of a few bullets to get them to seat off the ogive in the RCBS dies and that defined the problem just as Boyd suggested...they do come out straight now. The only bullet that seats straight with either of my RCBS 204 seater dies is a 32gr Nosler...it contacts the ogive before the tip contacts...35 Bergers, 32 V-max, 40 v-max, 39 sierra, 32 sierra, 40 nosler, 40 BIB, 39 Speer, 40 berger...all of these contact on the tip...if RCBS doesn't have a different plug then I will get the Redding die. I will post if/when I get a response back from RCBS. Thanks

Gene
Click to expand...
I haven't dealt with RCBS that much. I have some of their dies and other equipment but it seems to me that they lack a little bit with specialty items. Redding I think is better but hopefully RCBS comes through for you. I know they have great customer service, but I don't know if they have the product you need.
 
Just got off the phone with RCBS...they are going to send another seater stem/plug. I had bought these dies several years ago and the tech told me that they might have changed the seater plug since then...said that they had on the 22 calibers and some others, but not sure on the 204. He said to check this one out and see if it works when I get it. It will be interesting to see if they have changed them some. Thanks
 
I have drilled a hole in the seating plug to allow pointier bullets to seat without touching the tip. I have also found that debris can collect in the tip area of te seating plug and, like all tools,they need a good cleaning occasionally.
 
Update on this situation...while waiting on the RCBS seater plug to arrive, I went ahead and ordered a Redding 204 seater die. It, the redding die, came in the mail today, so I set it up and loaded some 204's...everything was .001 or less on total indicated runout, so I am good to go now.
When the new RCBS seater plug arrives, I will be interested to see if it is any different than the original one or not...the original plugs on the regular seater and the comp seater are really small in diameter and don't have much room up in the "nose" of the plug...it might be hard to get them drilled out straight with enough taper/bevel for them to work properly, I may try messing with one of them just for kicks and grins to see if it will work once the new plug arrives. RCBS has good quality stuff but the seater plug design on this caliber doesn't seem to be the best. Thanks

Gene
 
Final update...the new RCBS standard seater plug arrived and it has been changed from the older design...the counterbore up in the plug has sufficient clearance now for all bullets to seat off of the ogive. Rounds seated with this plug come out fine...kudos to RCBS for sending this to me...no charge. This only leaves my competition seater "out of commission" but for $28 RCBS will make a custom plug for it...I may try drilling it out and see if I can get it to work...I like this seater because of the drop in window for the tiny bullets, but with having the standard seater and the redding seater working ok now I may just have to get by with out it. Thanks again to all and especially Boyd for finding the problem quick for me.

Gene
 
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