i have a 6x45 custom that shot a one hole(.149") group with shots #2,3,and 4. this was new .223 lapua simply necked up to 6 mm. the gun shot many small holes with a variety of bullets and powders with new brass. i then began sizing fired brass with a redding fl die, initially using the expander plug, then redding titaniun ball, then expanding the neck with a wilson neck expander. runout of case neck was .003+. i'll try anything so i ran some brass into a .223 redding body die. this die is for a .223 dia neck so the 6 mm neck was squeezed down slightly below what the 6x45 fl die. i used a wilson 6 mm expaner with lube to bring the neck dia to .2655 which is what the fl die and expander produced. a check of neck runout revealed NONE or .001! loaded the bullet, took a deep breath and measured bullet runout...beautiful! shot comparison cases yeaterday and there was a difference in groups. i am sure fl dies can be out slightly as mine seems to be. i'll repeat this process but when you have 25 consecutive cases measuring the same...good or bad, i'll stay with the good.
excessive runout with a fl die...problem solved
- Thread starter lpreddick
- Start date
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
I'm surprised the 223 Rem body die, while extruding the neck down, did so in a smooth fashion, apparently. I wouldn't think the neck opening would have been radiused smoothly and the surface polished sufficiently. And even then I would have thought it would be too abrupt an edge for the purpose. Like squeezing toothpaste through a small hole in a thin sheet, the brass would spring back quite a lot as it emerged I would think. So it didn't roughen the outside of the neck at all?
I recently pondered necking down some 257 Roberts brass using a 6mm Rem body die, and decided against it for the reasons I mentioned above. I got an old 6mm Rem full length die to do it.
I recently pondered necking down some 257 Roberts brass using a 6mm Rem body die, and decided against it for the reasons I mentioned above. I got an old 6mm Rem full length die to do it.
CatShooter
lpreddick said:
When sizing a case in a standard or bushing "S" die FL die, unless the body is a perfect cylinder (0.0000000° taper), then the neck is sized before the body comes in contact with the die body - cases with more taper (22-250) are worse than cases with minimal taper(6mmBR)... but none-the-less, if the neck starts to size, unguided, it is up to the body, in the last stage of he stroke, to "try" to correct it.
The only dies (that I know of) that avoid this are the Redding competition sizers - both neck and FL - they align (or size) the case body in the floating sleeve ( so there are no alignment issues), before the bushing is brought down on the neck. They are expensive, but I am now converting over to them on all of my accuracy rifles/calibres.
The necks on my cases done with these dies are typically 0.0005" to 0.001" runout - easy peasy.
bigedp51
Right now on my reloading bench is a standard RCBS full length 30-06 resizng die, the expander spindle is adjusted like the Forster FL die with the expander mounted high inside the die. On the down stroke while the neck of the case is still inside the neck of the die the expander enters the neck of the case. Like the Forster die I have a ribber o-ring under the spindle lock nut just finger tight so the spindle/expander floats and self centers in the neck of the case. The die body has a Lee lock ring with a rubber o-ring installed.
With unturned necks my runout most of the time matches the neck variations in neck wall thickness and these 30-06 cases were fired in a M1 Garand with a big fat, long sloppy chamber.
Bottom line, I'm afraid to touch the die or make any more adjustment because this is the least amount of runout I have ever had with military cases fired in a military chamber. So the o-rings help center the die in the press and the o-ring on the spindle lock nut centers the expander and does not pull the necks off center.
So I wonder has anyone tried this with a rifle with a tighter chamber? I have seen the o-ring under the die lock ring before but I do not think I have seen the Forster rubber washer/o-ring under the lock nut.
P.S. CatShooter with such low runout figures what shooting and breathing methods do you use for long range shooting standing on your hind legs.
And that rifle doesn't look like a benchrest rifle so whats your secret.
With unturned necks my runout most of the time matches the neck variations in neck wall thickness and these 30-06 cases were fired in a M1 Garand with a big fat, long sloppy chamber.
Bottom line, I'm afraid to touch the die or make any more adjustment because this is the least amount of runout I have ever had with military cases fired in a military chamber. So the o-rings help center the die in the press and the o-ring on the spindle lock nut centers the expander and does not pull the necks off center.
So I wonder has anyone tried this with a rifle with a tighter chamber? I have seen the o-ring under the die lock ring before but I do not think I have seen the Forster rubber washer/o-ring under the lock nut.
P.S. CatShooter with such low runout figures what shooting and breathing methods do you use for long range shooting standing on your hind legs.
And that rifle doesn't look like a benchrest rifle so whats your secret.
CatShooter
bigedp51 said:P.S. CatShooter with such low runout figures what shooting and breathing methods do you use for long range shooting standing on your hind legs.
And that rifle doesn't look like a benchrest rifle so whats your secret.
Real benchrest shooters, shoot standing up (just to make it fair to the other guys).
last night i tried a redding 6x45 neck die without the expander and these cases likewise had .003 runout right out of the die. even after neck expansion with the wilson the r/o remained. i ran thes cases thru the .223 body die then wilson neck expanded and ....000-.001 r/o! i had some loaded cases that had the .003 r/o so i pulled the bullets and resized in the .223 die and wilson exp and ...000-.001 r/o! it seems my r/o is in the neck, not the body. as CatShooter noted, the neck is being squeezed before the die touches the body, but this is also happening in the .223 body die. i wonder if the 6x45 dies have a malalignmeny between the neck and body as the r/o remains even after the body is compressed but not so in the .223 body die. i have some lee lock rings with the washer and will use these with the 6x45 fl and neck dies but suspect no improvement.
I believe it is misalignment of the die. Big threads have a lot of slop in them. I set my die up by running the die down till I have camover. I let it cammed and run the lock ring down and tighten. Now I let the pressure off from the press. You will have to use pliers to loosen the die. Now when I want to bump to a specific bump I use skips die shims. I can take my first case and measure with stoney point. I then add a bunch of shims and will size case. I will check with stoney point. If no bump I remove some shim. I keep doing this till I get my .002 bump. This way it is easy to control bump. I can shoot and change the bump easily as cases get harder or change if I anneal. I find my runout to be fairly good. Matt
bigedp51
dkhunt14 said:
dkhunt14
I use the same setup and centering method of the die but I no longer use skips shims and instead use competition shell holders. This way the die is not touched and by switching the shell holders the press always reaches cam over and any press flex is removed. If you use an o-ring under the dies lock ring it allows the die to float and self center and your results might even be better. I just use the stock Lee lock ring and its partially recessed o-ring and tighten them finger tight.
O-Rings on Dies May Reduce Run-Out
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/o-rings-on-dies-may-reduce-run-out/
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
I feel the rubber O-ring has merit. However, I am confused (not unusual).
If repeatable die height adjustment is critical for controlled and repeatable sizing (assumed by the O-ring article, wherein lock ring adjustment and clamping are discussed at length) then that requires a clamping lock ring, and a hard lock ring-to-press (metal-to-metal) engagement. And the O-ring will be either displaced out of the way, or rendered two dimensional.
If a floating, self-centering die is desired, then it seems to be that rules out hard engagement of the lock ring, and repeatability of die-to-press engagement flies out the window.
What am I missing?
I use the Redding Competition shell holders, cam the die over 1/8 turn against the shell holder, and then engage the lock ring. After that I trust to Providence and the die manufacturer's tolerances.
If repeatable die height adjustment is critical for controlled and repeatable sizing (assumed by the O-ring article, wherein lock ring adjustment and clamping are discussed at length) then that requires a clamping lock ring, and a hard lock ring-to-press (metal-to-metal) engagement. And the O-ring will be either displaced out of the way, or rendered two dimensional.
If a floating, self-centering die is desired, then it seems to be that rules out hard engagement of the lock ring, and repeatability of die-to-press engagement flies out the window.
What am I missing?
I use the Redding Competition shell holders, cam the die over 1/8 turn against the shell holder, and then engage the lock ring. After that I trust to Providence and the die manufacturer's tolerances.
bigedp51
brians356
In the Speer reloading manual #9 there is a chapter called "Modern Benchrest Reloading Techniques" and it tells you how using standard off the shelf dies like RCBS how to minimize runout. This is done almost exactly as dkhunt14 initially did to remove the slop and self center the die in the press, this same chapter also tells you how the center the expander spindle and not pull the necks off center. Essential this is making sure your dies are aligned correctly after screwing them into the die and the rubber o-rings were added years later for variations in cases and still keep everything in proper alignment.
1. As long as the press cams over it no longer has any effect on sizing because the die is making hard contact with the shell holder.
2. Adding the o-ring allows the die to float and self center in the press every time and not just once during die setup and adds a little wiggle room to the equation.
3. Forster dies have a rubber washer under the spindle lock nut that allows it to float also.
4. You can buy the more costly dies that CatShooter described or cheat and use rubber o-rings and a standard die.
5. With the rubber o-rings you remove slop from the press and the course threads you screw your dies into, and you may even have read here about using a rubber o-ring on your shell holder.
Bottom line, you can cause the die to tilt or shift when tightening the lock ring, and with the o-ring you have turned your press into a Forster Co-Ax press with floating dies.
"The Forster Co-Ax® Reloading Press comes with several unique features that help make it truly one of a kind, including:
The Co-Ax® Reloading Press delivers perfect alignment of the die and the case because the shell holder jaws are designed to float with the die, thereby permitting the case to center precisely in the die."
In the Speer reloading manual #9 there is a chapter called "Modern Benchrest Reloading Techniques" and it tells you how using standard off the shelf dies like RCBS how to minimize runout. This is done almost exactly as dkhunt14 initially did to remove the slop and self center the die in the press, this same chapter also tells you how the center the expander spindle and not pull the necks off center. Essential this is making sure your dies are aligned correctly after screwing them into the die and the rubber o-rings were added years later for variations in cases and still keep everything in proper alignment.
1. As long as the press cams over it no longer has any effect on sizing because the die is making hard contact with the shell holder.
2. Adding the o-ring allows the die to float and self center in the press every time and not just once during die setup and adds a little wiggle room to the equation.
3. Forster dies have a rubber washer under the spindle lock nut that allows it to float also.
4. You can buy the more costly dies that CatShooter described or cheat and use rubber o-rings and a standard die.
5. With the rubber o-rings you remove slop from the press and the course threads you screw your dies into, and you may even have read here about using a rubber o-ring on your shell holder.
Bottom line, you can cause the die to tilt or shift when tightening the lock ring, and with the o-ring you have turned your press into a Forster Co-Ax press with floating dies.
"The Forster Co-Ax® Reloading Press comes with several unique features that help make it truly one of a kind, including:
The Co-Ax® Reloading Press delivers perfect alignment of the die and the case because the shell holder jaws are designed to float with the die, thereby permitting the case to center precisely in the die."
Thinking I read it in a Sierra V/ 5th to place a known it’s dead flat washer on top of the shell holder, between it and die then raise the ram and maintain (I first give it a gentle bounce or two) a light upwards pressure on the die to square and center it in the threads before putting the snug on the locking ring to fix the die in place. It said toss any die locking rings that screw something in against the die’s threads and to use only the clamp on variety. To loosen the die, it says to use pliers only on the locking ring and never on the die itself.
I fergits where I read to center the expander ball by tightening the de-cap/expander stem lock nut while the expander was loaded from pulling it up through the neck of a case known to have had minimal runout beforehand. It’s the same deal here far as locking the devise into position while it’s squared and centered in the threads from forces directed in the same direction the devise will encounter doing its for real thing. I’ve also trashed the standard expander balls and replaced them with a floating carbide expander, one for each caliber of my regular Redding FL and neck size dies. All dig into the die threads style locking rings have been replaced with Sinclair’s clamping style.
The Redding Type S FL and neck bushing dies lack the case body positioning sliding sleeve of Redding’s Competition neck bushing die and Competition seaters, both of these have micrometer adjustment. There is no sliding sleeve body guiding Competition Full Length bushing die, it only comes in a neck size only die.
I fergits where I read to center the expander ball by tightening the de-cap/expander stem lock nut while the expander was loaded from pulling it up through the neck of a case known to have had minimal runout beforehand. It’s the same deal here far as locking the devise into position while it’s squared and centered in the threads from forces directed in the same direction the devise will encounter doing its for real thing. I’ve also trashed the standard expander balls and replaced them with a floating carbide expander, one for each caliber of my regular Redding FL and neck size dies. All dig into the die threads style locking rings have been replaced with Sinclair’s clamping style.
The Redding Type S FL and neck bushing dies lack the case body positioning sliding sleeve of Redding’s Competition neck bushing die and Competition seaters, both of these have micrometer adjustment. There is no sliding sleeve body guiding Competition Full Length bushing die, it only comes in a neck size only die.
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
bigedp51 said:
A light dawns. Thanks! The cam-over aligns the floating die, and as long as the dies does not turn at all in the press, should also maintain consistent sizing depth. I suppose by compressing the o-ring somewhat with the locking ring, it resist any turning of the die in the threads. But with a decent amount of cam action, I suppose even a bit of turning will still result in consistent sizing. I think I'll head over to Ace Hardware and get an o-ring ...
bigedp51
brians356
At Germán A. Salazar's webpage "The Rifleman's Journal" is a ton of info on die setup and reloading tips, and also where I first read about "The Rat Turd in the Violin Case" and since I have a warped sense of humor, I think its both very funny and very true.
In one of his reloading tips is placing a reference mark (slippage mark) on the die and press to check for die rotation. You may also need to fiddle with the dies tightness meaning how finger tight the lock ring should be by checking the cases on the neck with a runout gauge until it is fine tuned.
The Rifleman's Journal
Index of Articles
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/p/articles-index.html
And I want Mr. Boyd Allen to read these two great articles by Mr. Salazar.
Reloading the .303 British Today
by Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2012/04/cartridges-reloading-303-british-today.html
.303 British Handload Test
by German A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2012/04/cartridges-303-british-handload-test.html
Double Bazinga.
At Germán A. Salazar's webpage "The Rifleman's Journal" is a ton of info on die setup and reloading tips, and also where I first read about "The Rat Turd in the Violin Case" and since I have a warped sense of humor, I think its both very funny and very true.
In one of his reloading tips is placing a reference mark (slippage mark) on the die and press to check for die rotation. You may also need to fiddle with the dies tightness meaning how finger tight the lock ring should be by checking the cases on the neck with a runout gauge until it is fine tuned.
The Rifleman's Journal
Index of Articles
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/p/articles-index.html
And I want Mr. Boyd Allen to read these two great articles by Mr. Salazar.
Reloading the .303 British Today
by Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2012/04/cartridges-reloading-303-british-today.html
.303 British Handload Test
by German A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2012/04/cartridges-303-british-handload-test.html
Double Bazinga.
bigedp51
brians356 said:
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I got my cobbled up/sporterized (not done by me, from a friend's estate) No.4 Mk I out of the safe, with the intent of checking the headspace on a piece of Remington brass. First, I put two layers of Scotch tape on the head of a case, chambered it, and closed the bolt. It felt a bit snug as the handle closed, but it could be closed, so I put on another piece (.006 total thickness) and as I closed on the case again, it felt snug, and I noticed that I had to apply extra force to close the gap between the bolt handle and the reciever. figuring that I was compressing the tape a bit, I figured that I must have around .005. Not being totally satisfied, I did a search and came up with this site
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/3361/Headspace-101-for-30339s#.VD3StRZciSo
, and as part of that search read a snippet about making sure the bolt head was fully screwed into the bolt body. I light came on. The reason that I was getting some squish down as I finished closing the bolt, was that ti was getting longer because of the body was rotating, and the head was not, jacking the head forward, even though the locking lug (the one that I could observe) had passed the closing cam and was on the flat of the abutment (Translation, I was smashing the stack of tape as the bolt body rotated on the head.). Reading down the page I came to the bit about using a feeler gauge between the lug and its abutment, and with the striker uncocked, I pushed on the bolt handle as hard as I could (with a piece of brass in the chamber) and could not see any appreciable gap, or movement. Evidently my friend had attended to the headspace issue quite well. When I dug out the box of brass, there was a bag of it that had been fired with a mild load, and then sized and primed. Looking at the light striations on the necks, it had probably been neck sized (or a fl die had been backed off so that it did not touch the shoulder), using an improvised, off caliber die, that was larger at the shoulder than the .303. In any case, the chamber did not show any evidence of being badly oversized at all, when compared to an unfired case. I remember Bill telling me that he had gotten the barrel off of a No1 Mk4 because its bore looked so good compared to the one that had originally come on the action, and that getting it off of the action had been a real bear. In any case, my next move is to look for that set of Lee .300 savage dies that I think that I used to neck size with, and see if that is possible, and to figure out how I managed to seat the bullets. If I get a functioning setup put back together, and shoot a group what is as good as I once did with the rifle, I may post a picture or two. We shall see.
Boyd
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/3361/Headspace-101-for-30339s#.VD3StRZciSo
, and as part of that search read a snippet about making sure the bolt head was fully screwed into the bolt body. I light came on. The reason that I was getting some squish down as I finished closing the bolt, was that ti was getting longer because of the body was rotating, and the head was not, jacking the head forward, even though the locking lug (the one that I could observe) had passed the closing cam and was on the flat of the abutment (Translation, I was smashing the stack of tape as the bolt body rotated on the head.). Reading down the page I came to the bit about using a feeler gauge between the lug and its abutment, and with the striker uncocked, I pushed on the bolt handle as hard as I could (with a piece of brass in the chamber) and could not see any appreciable gap, or movement. Evidently my friend had attended to the headspace issue quite well. When I dug out the box of brass, there was a bag of it that had been fired with a mild load, and then sized and primed. Looking at the light striations on the necks, it had probably been neck sized (or a fl die had been backed off so that it did not touch the shoulder), using an improvised, off caliber die, that was larger at the shoulder than the .303. In any case, the chamber did not show any evidence of being badly oversized at all, when compared to an unfired case. I remember Bill telling me that he had gotten the barrel off of a No1 Mk4 because its bore looked so good compared to the one that had originally come on the action, and that getting it off of the action had been a real bear. In any case, my next move is to look for that set of Lee .300 savage dies that I think that I used to neck size with, and see if that is possible, and to figure out how I managed to seat the bullets. If I get a functioning setup put back together, and shoot a group what is as good as I once did with the rifle, I may post a picture or two. We shall see.
Boyd
bigedp51
Boyd Allen
The site and the person who wrote "headspace 101" and I have been at war for over eight years and the first version of "Headspace 101" he told everyone to lube their cases to prevent them from stretching. Finally after posting the information below all over the net he dropped the lubed case trick and added weed whacker cord which is utter garbage. This person failed to grasp the grade steel used in the Enfield rifle and the real purpose of having replaceable bolt heads on the rifle. Needless to say the link you posted is worthless and the two of us hate each others guts.
Below from the 1929 British Textbook of Small Arms. This really made this person mad that he had to change his "Headspace 101" and this heightened the war between the greasers and non-case greaser.
Below are my photos showing how to measure head clearance on the Enfield rifle and they were the first photos posted in a Enfield forum. You simply chamber an empty and unfired case in the chamber and place the feeler gauge between the right locking lug and the receiver to get your head clearance. (No scotch tape needed) the second and slightly more accurate method is to use the primer method I have shown before. So at a guns shows all you need is a set of feeler gauges and an empty case if you do not have headspace gauges.
I had written articles on bedding the Enfield rifle and how to shim the draws.
Below is why you do not lube .303 cases, the bolt head and bolt body get hit first by the bolt thrust and then the locking lugs get hit. By using replaceable bolt heads a lower grade steel could be use to keep the cost down and actually keep the rifle in service longer by changing the bolt heads and decreasing headspace.
Below is the result of excess bolt thrust and wear, the maximum bolt head rotation is 20 degrees
I wrote articles on how to properly install the bolt heads and bolthead timing, meaning when the rear of the bolt head should contact the collar on the firing pin.
At one time I had the largest and only Enfield manual sticky anywhere on the internet after collecting British and Commonwealth military manuals from all over the world for over ten years. Its all gone now because someone also had some of this information and rewrote it and was selling what he copied form the Canadian No.4 manual which I had in my manual sticky. When he started loosing money because I was giving the Enfied books and manuals away for free he wrote to the Enfield forums and said I was breaking copyright laws and I was shut down. The problem is military manuals are not copyrighted and someone else sucked my manual sticky dry and posted all the same information in their forum.
Bottom line, all my time, work and money spent was for nothing, another forum is using all this information, so I sold off my Enfield collection and packed up all the manuals from all over the world. And sadly there are more than a few people I would like to be lock in a room alone with to express my "feelings" and one of them is the person you posted the link from. There were headspace wars and case greaser wars and in the end very few people even read any of the material. But along the way I had conversations with the Senior British Armourer in the UK and Enfield author of several book. And made many friends all over the world and had great fun with a crazy bunch of Ozmanics in Orstraya.
I even have Enfield manuals in Dutch.
The site and the person who wrote "headspace 101" and I have been at war for over eight years and the first version of "Headspace 101" he told everyone to lube their cases to prevent them from stretching. Finally after posting the information below all over the net he dropped the lubed case trick and added weed whacker cord which is utter garbage. This person failed to grasp the grade steel used in the Enfield rifle and the real purpose of having replaceable bolt heads on the rifle. Needless to say the link you posted is worthless and the two of us hate each others guts.
Below from the 1929 British Textbook of Small Arms. This really made this person mad that he had to change his "Headspace 101" and this heightened the war between the greasers and non-case greaser.
Below are my photos showing how to measure head clearance on the Enfield rifle and they were the first photos posted in a Enfield forum. You simply chamber an empty and unfired case in the chamber and place the feeler gauge between the right locking lug and the receiver to get your head clearance. (No scotch tape needed) the second and slightly more accurate method is to use the primer method I have shown before. So at a guns shows all you need is a set of feeler gauges and an empty case if you do not have headspace gauges.
I had written articles on bedding the Enfield rifle and how to shim the draws.
Below is why you do not lube .303 cases, the bolt head and bolt body get hit first by the bolt thrust and then the locking lugs get hit. By using replaceable bolt heads a lower grade steel could be use to keep the cost down and actually keep the rifle in service longer by changing the bolt heads and decreasing headspace.
Below is the result of excess bolt thrust and wear, the maximum bolt head rotation is 20 degrees
I wrote articles on how to properly install the bolt heads and bolthead timing, meaning when the rear of the bolt head should contact the collar on the firing pin.
At one time I had the largest and only Enfield manual sticky anywhere on the internet after collecting British and Commonwealth military manuals from all over the world for over ten years. Its all gone now because someone also had some of this information and rewrote it and was selling what he copied form the Canadian No.4 manual which I had in my manual sticky. When he started loosing money because I was giving the Enfied books and manuals away for free he wrote to the Enfield forums and said I was breaking copyright laws and I was shut down. The problem is military manuals are not copyrighted and someone else sucked my manual sticky dry and posted all the same information in their forum.
Bottom line, all my time, work and money spent was for nothing, another forum is using all this information, so I sold off my Enfield collection and packed up all the manuals from all over the world. And sadly there are more than a few people I would like to be lock in a room alone with to express my "feelings" and one of them is the person you posted the link from. There were headspace wars and case greaser wars and in the end very few people even read any of the material. But along the way I had conversations with the Senior British Armourer in the UK and Enfield author of several book. And made many friends all over the world and had great fun with a crazy bunch of Ozmanics in Orstraya.
I even have Enfield manuals in Dutch.
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