• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

ES and Standard Deviation For the Shooter

CharlieNC

Gold $$ Contributor
There is often confusion regarding the interpretation of SD and ES, and therefore how to best use these statistics to characterize and improve your shooting. Using an example when the real answer is known, the differences of using SD and ES based on a few samples is shown in the attached file.
 

Attachments

The extreme spread, from say 25 shots, will tell you only that you are some percent sure that your next shot will be within that spread. The SD or MAD will tell you how close to your mean velocity your next shot is likely to be. The difference in the numbers is very large at longer ranges. If you are hunting and use the ES number you would likely not shoot for fear of missing your target but using the SD you would be better prepared for the likelihood of hitting your target.
It can be compared to a point blank range. If you use a PBR of 2" target you are limited to about 200 yards. If you use a PBR of 6" you can extend your range to around 350 yards. (with a 308/30-06 type velocities)
 
Nice treatise, well explained. Good references to have but no guarantee of good accuracy. German Salazar (amongst others) did primer tests showing excellent accuracy at 600 yds. with so-so to awful ES and SD numbers. Though even he would say he would always attempt to obtain the smallest of each for 1000 yds..
 
I use ES while tuning as an aide.. I don't settle on anything because ES was better.. If I was in a toss up over a couple nodes at 1k, I may choose the lower ES..

Ray
 
Larry I know that is your standard answer but your response does not relate to what I wrote, which dealt with understanding how to better interpret. Its not just about chrono numbers, but target statistics as well; as an Fclass competitor the sd is directly applicable to SCORES.
 
Silver Mountain has all the data stored from the 2016 F Class Nationals...that would make a nice research paper...
 
The way I see it All you need to worry about is Es that is why makes the difference on target . Larry
Shooting 6mm loads at 600 & 1000 yd, what is the max FPS variance you look for? Assuming the brass prep, bullets and powder charge are consistent, is the FPS variance mostly about the consistency of the primers? If yes, which primers provide the most consistent SD?
Ben
 
Shooting 6mm loads at 600 & 1000 yd, what is the max FPS variance you look for? Assuming the brass prep, bullets and powder charge are consistent, is the FPS variance mostly about the consistency of the primers? If yes, which primers provide the most consistent SD?
Ben
5 and less ES SD 3 on 10 shots .
Case capacity of .02 difference . Larry
 
Charlie I am not trying to be a smart ass. When I took Statistics 40 years ago we we were taught to calculate the standard of deviation, it was a culmination of several numbers. The ES is an individual number. The standard deviation can be the culmination of a number of Extreme Spreads. Basically adveraging.
 
Charlie I am not trying to be a smart ass. When I took Statistics 40 years ago we we were taught to calculate the standard of deviation, it was a culmination of several numbers. The ES is an individual number. The standard deviation can be the culmination of a number of Extreme Spreads. Basically adveraging.

Yes you can estimate sd using es if you have the appropriate chart and formula. But the main point is understanding the impact of your sample size on the calculated result in terms of representing the real answer, and the limitations of use.
 
Very nice write-up, Charlie!

As Charlie's statistics write-up points out, velocity SD is useful for estimating probabilities that single shot will fall within a particular velocity range. From that, you can make predictions of what effect the velocity variance of a load will have in terms of POI on the target (high/low). However, from any given data set, POI predictions made using SD will never fall outside (high/low) those made using ES. The difference is that ES does not allow you to make any estimate of where the in-between velocity shots will fall, whereas SD does.

Realistically, very few shooters ever utilize the complete information contained in their velocity data, which was the point of Charlie's write-up. Most simply develop a "feel" for whether a given load's velocity numbers are acceptable using either ES or SD as a measure of expected vertical spread due to velocity variance. I have always used ES, but the truth is that either ES or SD will work perfectly well for this simple purpose. If you wish to be more predictive with your velocity data, the SD value contains more information than ES and can therefore be used to predict vertical POI probabilities for all the shots in the string, rather than just the highest and lowest.

For F-Class shooting with 20-shot strings of fire, the reality is that a 20 fps ES will generally not produce [theoretical] vertical dispersion large enough to put you out of the X-ring at 1000 yd. However, if you're measuring velocity ES/SD from 5- or 10-shot strings, chances are very good your actual numbers on a longer string under match conditions will be significantly higher simply due to the larger sample size and barrel heating. For that reason, it's common to see statements to the effect that keeping ES at or under 10 fps, or SD in the low single digits, is what you want to see for a good F-Class load. Although such parameters can never rule out the effect of a single velocity outlier, they generally are a valid guideline for load development. The advent of e-targets and their resultant velocity measurements at the target face, as well as the use of a LabRadar for measuring long strings of fire shot under match conditions, may make it worthwhile for a larger number of shooters to analyze their velocity data in more detail.

I tend to view the whole velocity issue from a slightly different perspective. In my hands, it is not too difficult to keep the ES values for a good .308 F-TR load in the low teens or even slightly under 10 fps. For .223 loads, the values typically fall in the upper teens to low 20s. That is about the best I can routinely do without going to extraordinary lengths at the reloading bench. As noted above, those values will [theoretically] give me 10-ring vertical at 1000 yd, if not X-ring vertical. Past that, I really don't want to think about velocity numbers while I'm shooting in a match, because I can't do anything about it at that time. As long as I keep the test values where they need to be during load development and validation, I have confidence the values will also be acceptable during a match. In contrast, a 1 mph wind is enough to put me out of the X-ring at 1000 yd if holding center. Likewise, a 2 mph wind will put me into the 9-ring. As long as I keep my load velocity numbers at the best level possible I can during development, the wind will be by far the major source of error in my scores during a match. For that reason, I pay due diligence to ES/SD values during load development, and routinely carry out velocity (and temperature) measurements during practice sessions to ensure no major changes have occurred. Otherwise, I'm far more concerned with the flags and mirage because I know that is where I have the greatest chance of dropping points during a match.
 
I concur with you Greg. And in addition I was apparently not clear that the same methods apply to characterizing shots on the target. If you want to decide which load is better the sd of the shots is more powerful than the es (group size). This approach can be expanded upon to reliably predict long term Fclass scores, meaning fewer shots to understand what to expect unless something changes. Like the wind! Interestingly there are publications which relate the sd of the wind velocity to average wind speed in the US. Yet another expansion which allows one to combine the sd's of your shot placement under ideal conditions + velocity (vert) + wind (hor) to obtain a good understanding of your scores and how/why they vary. Something to work on during bad weather!
 
Just a quick note: Wind speed is usually described as a Weibull distribution (as opposed to a normal distribution). Makes for some interesting implications about when to shoot and when not to, since a weibull isn't symmetrical.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,856
Messages
2,204,917
Members
79,174
Latest member
kit10n
Back
Top