Elmer Keith a mans man
- Thread starter jimmb
- Start date
rabradshaw
Gold $$ Contributor
Elmer Keith was/is one of my all time favorite, along with Col Jeff Cooper. I enjoyed reading their materials growing up as a young man and still refer to them periodically. I’ve also read Massad Ayoob and Bill Jordan’s materials. All good men with life experience to share.
Fast14riot
Gold $$ Contributor
The 41 mag is magic. Absolutely love my S&W M57 TTT P&R 8-3/8" pistol. Only other one I want more is a stainless 4". A buddy has one and I kick him in the shin every few months to sell it to me. He has refused every time so far.
I'm too young at 41 to really know much about EK from then current times but have read a bit about him and his writings. Enough to love the .41mag anyway.
I'm too young at 41 to really know much about EK from then current times but have read a bit about him and his writings. Enough to love the .41mag anyway.
jimmb
Silver $$ Contributor
same here I wanted one of his guns real bad. short on money back then. now i could do it...... hmmm
CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
Might be back in the early '60's I seem to remember a story he related. He was at a party somewhere out West and spotted a crow in a tree at 1,000 yards. Took a shot at it with a 22 rimfire rifle.
The crow fell.
Forum Boss: -- Well, anything is possible. But that is very hard to believe. According to JBM Ballistics, a .22LR 36gr bullet with 0.152 BC moving at 1050 fps MV (sea level) would have 309.9 MOA drop from 100-yard zero. That's 3,245 inches or 270.4 FEET or 90.1 yards. A wee bit too much hold-over folks -- he would have to aim 90 yards in the air over the bird. Even with a scoped rimfire rifle with the elevation max'd out it would be near impossible. I think he was probably just joshing the party-goers.
The crow fell.
Forum Boss: -- Well, anything is possible. But that is very hard to believe. According to JBM Ballistics, a .22LR 36gr bullet with 0.152 BC moving at 1050 fps MV (sea level) would have 309.9 MOA drop from 100-yard zero. That's 3,245 inches or 270.4 FEET or 90.1 yards. A wee bit too much hold-over folks -- he would have to aim 90 yards in the air over the bird. Even with a scoped rimfire rifle with the elevation max'd out it would be near impossible. I think he was probably just joshing the party-goers.
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I was fortunate enough to visit Elmer and Loraine at their Salmon Idaho home.
He was every bit as friendly and colorful as others have written.
I have a photo of us standing, with his Outstanding American Handgunner Trophy in the background.
His 4" Model 29 -the one with the carved Ivory grip seen in the auction photos, was nudging my hip.
Didn't even know the trophy was in the photo until I saw the pictures.
Have also met and been taught by Cooper, Ayoob, and Munden, talked with Seyfried, Venturino, and
others who might not be so well recognized today. I received Coopers last Gunsite Expert Certificate.
I really do wish I'd been able to meet Skeeter, Jordon, and Nonte, but that was never in the cards.
The visit with Elmer is absolutely the highlight of all.
He was every bit as friendly and colorful as others have written.
I have a photo of us standing, with his Outstanding American Handgunner Trophy in the background.
His 4" Model 29 -the one with the carved Ivory grip seen in the auction photos, was nudging my hip.
Didn't even know the trophy was in the photo until I saw the pictures.
Have also met and been taught by Cooper, Ayoob, and Munden, talked with Seyfried, Venturino, and
others who might not be so well recognized today. I received Coopers last Gunsite Expert Certificate.
I really do wish I'd been able to meet Skeeter, Jordon, and Nonte, but that was never in the cards.
The visit with Elmer is absolutely the highlight of all.
Rick in Oregon
Gold $$ Contributor
I started reading Elmer's work when I got back to The World in 1968. My first .44M (a M29 of course!) was a result of reading "Sixguns" soon thereafter. I snagged an autographed copy of it in 1969, still have it. I showed it to his son at the NRA convention, and he confirmed it's authenticity.
From reading about his .333 OKH, I built my premier elk rifle on a pre-'64 M70 in .338-06 Ackley. It surpassed all my expectations and has harvested all my bulls since building it.
Elmer was an icon, and I missed meeting him by one year when he lived in Salmon, ID. I still regret not getting off my arse sooner to this day.
From reading about his .333 OKH, I built my premier elk rifle on a pre-'64 M70 in .338-06 Ackley. It surpassed all my expectations and has harvested all my bulls since building it.
Elmer was an icon, and I missed meeting him by one year when he lived in Salmon, ID. I still regret not getting off my arse sooner to this day.
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lawman29
Gold $$ Contributor
Back in the late 70s - 80s was working for NMGF, we'd off and on handle elk damage complaints. My running mate had a 8mm-06 that was perfect, dumped over a bunch of cow elk. He called it the "Mother of Darkness". I ran the spotlight and ammo, when he ran out it was "please...more Mother's Milk..."
I love the 44 Rem Mag that Elmer Keith gave us. In something like a Ruger SuperRedHawk you can seat the bullets out a bit further and push pressures up enough to do anything that needs to be done with a 6 shot revolver.
I could have gotten mine in other chamberings but back when I was in college with just one year left on my MBA I could get 44 Rem Mag at gas stations, K-Mart, Walmart, Meijers and just about any place else that sould ammo. In fact a box of 240gr JSP where $9-$12 a box at K-Mart. All of the other chamberings I could have gotten a Ruger SuperRedHawk in where only available in limited amounts and only at Big Box Stores or special order. I did not start reloading for another year.
I would have liked 480 Ruger or 454 Casull... That is also why had I gotten a Desert Eagle it would have been in 357Mag or 44Mag since 50AE was always unobtainium! 41Mag and 10mm have always been diffacult to find with in 1.5 hour radius from home when you see them it is like seeing a unicorn you stop, point and take a picture to prove you actual say some on a store shelf! Sure you can always special order stuff either from a store or over the internet today but the internet and ammo where not always like it is today! In the early 1990's 1900-1994 it was still diffacult to find ammo one line and often you had to call someone and use your credit card over a phone or fax.
We have so many great .44 pistol bullets to choose from today for target shooting and hunting.
The 44 Rem Mag is the sweet spot for performance and recoil tolerance for the average guy. It is kind of like the older belted magnum rifle cartridges like the 338WM, 300WM, 7RM, 300Wby where they are right at the limit that the average hunter can easily tolerate with out a ton of range time! You can find plenty of modern cartridges that hold more powder and can shoot even heavier bullets faster but to what end?
I have known plenty of people one of which is a cousin of mine that in a Ruger BlackHawk loads the 45 Long Colt to some pretty stout loadings. You know what none of them could ever do? None of them could ever pickup ammo at a gas station, Walmart(pre-handgun ammo ban), K-Mart, Meijer or pretty much any place that sold ammo! It was always special order and that is not even the hot stuff! Not a lot of modern revolvers let alone anything designed for concealed cary chambering 45 Long Colt let alone something hotter in .45 caliber!
I am not too convinced it matters much .44 vs .45 it would be like arguring between .323 vs .338 with out looking at bullet selection and the cartridges widely available for them in totality and also where you live and hunt!
If I truly had my heart set on something as a cartridge designer I think I could give up 1 bullet of capacity to get the strength I needed in the cyclinder. Going from 6 rounds to 5 rounds is not like going from 21 rounds down to 7! If it makes your dream happenand gives birth to a new cartridge I think the loss of 1 round would have been acceptable! With out having read his books I am guessing the real reason was because gun makers did not think it would take off with the market especially with single action shooters that would put them down to 4 round capacity!
I could have gotten mine in other chamberings but back when I was in college with just one year left on my MBA I could get 44 Rem Mag at gas stations, K-Mart, Walmart, Meijers and just about any place else that sould ammo. In fact a box of 240gr JSP where $9-$12 a box at K-Mart. All of the other chamberings I could have gotten a Ruger SuperRedHawk in where only available in limited amounts and only at Big Box Stores or special order. I did not start reloading for another year.
I would have liked 480 Ruger or 454 Casull... That is also why had I gotten a Desert Eagle it would have been in 357Mag or 44Mag since 50AE was always unobtainium! 41Mag and 10mm have always been diffacult to find with in 1.5 hour radius from home when you see them it is like seeing a unicorn you stop, point and take a picture to prove you actual say some on a store shelf! Sure you can always special order stuff either from a store or over the internet today but the internet and ammo where not always like it is today! In the early 1990's 1900-1994 it was still diffacult to find ammo one line and often you had to call someone and use your credit card over a phone or fax.
We have so many great .44 pistol bullets to choose from today for target shooting and hunting.
The 44 Rem Mag is the sweet spot for performance and recoil tolerance for the average guy. It is kind of like the older belted magnum rifle cartridges like the 338WM, 300WM, 7RM, 300Wby where they are right at the limit that the average hunter can easily tolerate with out a ton of range time! You can find plenty of modern cartridges that hold more powder and can shoot even heavier bullets faster but to what end?
I have known plenty of people one of which is a cousin of mine that in a Ruger BlackHawk loads the 45 Long Colt to some pretty stout loadings. You know what none of them could ever do? None of them could ever pickup ammo at a gas station, Walmart(pre-handgun ammo ban), K-Mart, Meijer or pretty much any place that sold ammo! It was always special order and that is not even the hot stuff! Not a lot of modern revolvers let alone anything designed for concealed cary chambering 45 Long Colt let alone something hotter in .45 caliber!
I am not too convinced it matters much .44 vs .45 it would be like arguring between .323 vs .338 with out looking at bullet selection and the cartridges widely available for them in totality and also where you live and hunt!
If I truly had my heart set on something as a cartridge designer I think I could give up 1 bullet of capacity to get the strength I needed in the cyclinder. Going from 6 rounds to 5 rounds is not like going from 21 rounds down to 7! If it makes your dream happenand gives birth to a new cartridge I think the loss of 1 round would have been acceptable! With out having read his books I am guessing the real reason was because gun makers did not think it would take off with the market especially with single action shooters that would put them down to 4 round capacity!
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
I built a “45 Magnum” back in the ‘70’s on a N Frame. I believe Elmer would have loved it.
I solved the cylinder wall thickness and strength problem by using E4340 Premium Aircraft Quality steel, normalized, rough machined, hardenned and double quenched to 38 RC. Non fluted.
I dressed out and squared the frame for maximum diameter. I used a model 25 barrel, a model 28 frame, and did all of the action work myself.
My “magnum load” was a 250 grn hard cast Kieth Style Semi Wadcutter at around 1350 fps, using Blue Dot powder. I also have loads with the Sierra 210 grain hollow points that top 1500.
I did a tremendous amount of testing with this project. One thing I found was the frame became the weak link. We did this by building a single shot cylinder for a test frame and remotly Shooting loads untill we literally bent the frame.
Guns and Ammo did a complete write up on this pistol.
Click on the link. It is the complete project.
Something From My Handgun Past You Might Enjoy
Back in the 1970’s, I was really into Handguns, Smith & Wesson and Colt Revolvers in particular. I built competition revolvers for local police departments, where I would take Model 10 Smiths, convert them to double action only, slick up the action, install custom bull barrels with the sides...
forum.accurateshooter.com
I solved the cylinder wall thickness and strength problem by using E4340 Premium Aircraft Quality steel, normalized, rough machined, hardenned and double quenched to 38 RC. Non fluted.
I dressed out and squared the frame for maximum diameter. I used a model 25 barrel, a model 28 frame, and did all of the action work myself.
My “magnum load” was a 250 grn hard cast Kieth Style Semi Wadcutter at around 1350 fps, using Blue Dot powder. I also have loads with the Sierra 210 grain hollow points that top 1500.
I did a tremendous amount of testing with this project. One thing I found was the frame became the weak link. We did this by building a single shot cylinder for a test frame and remotly Shooting loads untill we literally bent the frame.
Guns and Ammo did a complete write up on this pistol.
Click on the link. It is the complete project.
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Loudenboomer
Silver $$ Contributor
I always wondered what started the rift between Elmer and Jack O'Connor. Got a hunch. I grew up reading both of them couldn't wait for the magazines to show up in the maibox.
TonyinKY
Silver $$ Contributor
I shot my 44 Super RedHawk today because I’ll be carrying it for the KY bear firearm 4 day season opening tomorrow. I’ve always appreciated the Pinnacle Performance work of a single action trigger job, forcing cone and crown. My 10’s aren’t legal but I’d still choose this 44. The 2-6X scope gives me the accuracy and distance and the 44 mag will just outperform the 10mm on everything. But in grizzly country I carry my G40 for speed and capacity. I’m envious of those who have met the likes of Elmer Keith and Lt Col Jeff Cooper. But I can say I’ve shot against a LOT of the greats of Benchrest including Ferris Pindell, Walt Berger, Tony Boyer. I appreciate having heroes. They all give us something to strive for.
FNSafari
Gold $$ Contributor
O'Connor was erudite and a bit of a snob. Keith was a self-taught, hard working good 'ol boy. Both had strong views and, unsurprisingly, clashed from time to time. Situation not too abnormal! Both contributed great writings, opinions and in the case of Keith, much effort to bring on powerful handguns and cartridges. Elmer needed that 10-gallon hat!!
Rick in Oregon
Gold $$ Contributor
Elmer was a big bore/heavy bullet kind of guy, Jack was a small bore/light bullet guy.
There's not much common ground for two guys with a vast difference of opinion. One a .44 heavy 'slow' bullet guy, the other a .270 Win with a fast, light bullet. Back in the day, both were two of my most-read authors, but they were like oil and water. Loved 'em both though. Still miss 'em both.
ISS
Gold $$ Contributor
Keith told me one time the reason he disliked Jocko so much was the fact that he (O'Connor) never paid for a single one of those expensive guided hunts he went on. Or mentioned that fact to his readership.
Keith said he paid for his with a bit of wheeling and dealing double and single shot British big bore rifles.
We used to drive to Lewiston, Idaho, to buy Speer cosmetic (bullets) seconds from Lolo Sporting Goods. I drove to Jocko's house one time, and knocked on his front door with a copy of one of his books. He answered, and I introduced myself. He was unimpressed. I asked him if he would autograph the book. He said "No" turned around and closed the door in my face. I burned the book in a fire that evening. I thought he was a bit full of himself to live in Idaho.
Keith said he paid for his with a bit of wheeling and dealing double and single shot British big bore rifles.
We used to drive to Lewiston, Idaho, to buy Speer cosmetic (bullets) seconds from Lolo Sporting Goods. I drove to Jocko's house one time, and knocked on his front door with a copy of one of his books. He answered, and I introduced myself. He was unimpressed. I asked him if he would autograph the book. He said "No" turned around and closed the door in my face. I burned the book in a fire that evening. I thought he was a bit full of himself to live in Idaho.
In 1971 my wife and I were on our honeymoon traveling through the west and mostly camping as we had little money. I told her we were going to go through Lewiston Idaho as I wanted to meet Jack O'Connor. She didn't know who O'Connor was and I'm sure could care less! Anyway we got to Lewiston in early afternoon
oops.
I looked O'Connors address up in a phone book (725 Prospect) and found his house. I parked in the driveway, went to the front door and range the bell. Shortly Jack opened the door and in a booming voice said "what do you want?", I said my name is Dean Ekstrom. I literally learned to read on your columns in Outdoor Life and wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed your writing. He said "well come on in". We visited and he started asking me questions about where I was from etc. I told him him I was from Iowa where I was in school at the University of Iowa and was traveling on my honeymoon with my wife. He demanded to know where she was. I told him she was in the car in the driveway to which he said get her in here...which I did, even though she didn't want to.
I'll finish this story later..,
I looked O'Connors address up in a phone book (725 Prospect) and found his house. I parked in the driveway, went to the front door and range the bell. Shortly Jack opened the door and in a booming voice said "what do you want?", I said my name is Dean Ekstrom. I literally learned to read on your columns in Outdoor Life and wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed your writing. He said "well come on in". We visited and he started asking me questions about where I was from etc. I told him him I was from Iowa where I was in school at the University of Iowa and was traveling on my honeymoon with my wife. He demanded to know where she was. I told him she was in the car in the driveway to which he said get her in here...which I did, even though she didn't want to.
I'll finish this story later..,
Jonnyofalltrades
Silver $$ Contributor
You have us on the edge of our chairs!
Carry on.
drop_point
Silver $$ Contributor
That would be called "supine".
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