Electronic targets/ no hit

[Mozella]

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I think the NRA rules are fairly clear
CW

It’s kinda goofy, the assumption is, if it scores the second then it would have scored the first?
CW

If you're talking about paragraph B, that's how I read it too. That rule is simply unrealistic. We all know that electronic targets aren't perfect. Neither are shooters, but Paragraph B assumes that when a target fails to record a shot but DOES record the subsequent shot, then it must be a miss. Tell me how many shooters believe a guy shooting a long string of 10's and X's before and after the shot which failed to record has somehow become stupid for one shot? Balderdash. In my experience, failures-to-record are almost certainly the fault of the target unless it's an obvious cross fire.

Yesterday I shot an F-class match on Silver Mountain Targets, the latest version. Both my shooting partner and I had two shots each which failed to record. In all four instances the next round was a 10 or X and despite Paragraph B, the Match Director told us to simply ignore the missed shots. That seemed to us to be fair, we both shot well, and we both had fun. The same thing happened to a couple of other shooters too.

Had they scored two misses for me and two for my partner we would NOT have been happy campers. We admit to shooting a 9 from time to time, but we don't shoot 8's in good conditions so a rule requiring a miss when a shot fails to record is unrealistic to the point where the rule is being ignored.

In addition, both I and my shooting partner experienced two failures-to-record in a row on the Silver Mountain Target system yesterday. In both cases the Match Director reset our targets and we carried on from their, ignoring the pair of failures.

Truth be told, electronic targets, at least the ones I've used, are not perfect. I don't know if they score my shots with a 1/4" error one way or the other and frankly I don't much care. But what I do know for sure is that these targets malfunction once in a while and I have yet to see a case where an experienced shooter working on a string of high 190's with plenty of X's suddenly misses the entire target. We're far from perfect and I'm sure all of us have cross fired, but those situations are nearly always detected. So barring a cross fire, or an accidental discharge, I'm ready to trust an experience shooter WAY before I trust an electronic target. especially since a failure-to-record coupled with a poorly thought out NRA rule requires a likely good shot to be scored as a miss. Based on the state of the art of Silver Mountain Targets, and I suspect others, that is simply silly.

I'm going to shoot another match this morning and the Match Director will ignore paragraph B and allow everyone to ignore a failure-to-record unless there is an obvious alternative answer. Everyone plans to have fun.

Just to be clear, I don't intend to stop shooting Silver Mountain Targets or any other E target system. I'm glad to not have to do pit duty when I'm well into my 70's with temperatures well into the 90's. I'll take E targets warts and all, any day. What I don't like is the way NRA apparently wants us to score a failure-to-record.

 

[Gb300wm]

Seems to me if the target misses a shot, it would be just like a scorer missing a shot. Shoot until the scorer has right amount of shots for record....human or electronic

 

[Jeff Hague]

In a match today 4 shots were dropped by a Hex target on shooters who were shooting 10s and Xs at 600 yards. (all squadded together on the same target) On all 4 occasions the target registered the shot and could not locate it. I personally had it happen twice. In both cases I followed up with an X. Brad shot X-M-X in his last 3 shots. I'm a HM midrange F-TR shooter. This was a 3/4 MOA wind condition not blowing anyone out of the 9 ring even if you just held center and shot.

Since I started shooting competing in F class in 2011 I have never, ever missed a target at which I was aiming after the completion of sighers. I've cross fired about 3 time (and most of those have been 10s or Xs), I've had 3 occasions where I tapped the trigger when closing the bolt and sent an unaimed round at the targets. One was a 6 at 1000 yards, one was a 5 at 600 yards and the other was a cross fire.

The last match today when I got the unable to resolve location error I cleaned the target otherwise. (200-8x) One more reason never to bother to spend your money to travel to a big match on electronic targets till they get it sorted.

Oh, and if my 308 is blowing up 215s I'm doing something ain't nobody ever seen before.

Last match at 1000yds Brad had a load that was probably transonic at 1000 and coming in at a high angle. He could never get more than 7 out of 20 shots to record. All the other shots we got the message that the impact was recorded by the target but the location could not be resolved. The MD answer to this is that you hit outside of the scoring area. I watched his trace as he fireformed his last 10 shots into the berm. He dropped 10 rounds into a 2 foot area just aiming at a clump of grass.

Hex targets can miss shots.

EDIT: in the interest of full disclosure of today's events. When my first missed shot came up the MD called it a miss. When Brad got one 3 relays later they still hadn't decided that it was the targets were missing shots. When it happened to me in a clean the next match they replaced the misses with our last sighters (both 10s)

My frustration with this is not directed at the range staff or MD. It is that our sport is running headlong into this technology. It is all fine for monthly club matches, but there are issues that need to be resolved and performance that needs to be verified before we move past that point.

We have 10 of the HEXTA targets at Bridgeville, DE. Since last June we have had over 53,000 shots on the targets. No missed shots, no "dropped" shots. I would be very interested in the exact circumstances of what you describe. I am very suspect of what you describe as having happened.

 

[XTR]

We have 10 of the HEXTA targets at Bridgeville, DE. Since last June we have had over 53,000 shots on the targets. No missed shots, no "dropped" shots. I would be very interested in the exact circumstances of what you describe. I am very suspect of what you describe as having happened.

There is nothing left out of my description of the events. If it makes any difference I was shooting 215 Hybrids at about 2530. @jsthntn247 who posted above was one of the other shooters on the target and the shooter who had the failures two weeks ago.

Three shooters, 4 dropped shots yesterday on the same target. I had shots that were unable to resolve location on both of the above strings. Shot 12 is the missing shot on the 1st target above. I don't believe the scorer ever entered a miss on the pad on the second string.

Two weeks ago one shooter shooting 178s at 2650, calculate to get to the target at about mach 1.0± could not get a string to report. He was shooting new brass so on his last match he picked a spot in the berm and fire formed. I watched his trace and impacts. Every one hit within about a foot of the POA.

I am very suspect of what you describe as having happened.

This is part of the problem with e-targets. As noted above, everyone who has paid for them seems to have religious faith in their performance.

 

[Taildrag15X]

Seems to me if the target misses a shot, it would be just like a scorer missing a shot. Shoot until the scorer has right amount of shots for record....human or electronic

When a scorer misses the shot, you get to yell "pull target #xx" not get a chance to shoot another round......

And if the scorer doesn't find a hole it's a miss.

 

[XTR]

When a scorer misses the shot, you get to yell "pull target #xx" not get a chance to shoot another round......

And if the scorer doesn't find a hole it's a miss.

I think he's talking about the scorer, not the puller. The situation where you get to 20 shots in your ammo box and the scorer only has 19 on the score card. You usually shoot another shot and really hope you don't drop one.

 

[jsthntn247]

We have 10 of the HEXTA targets at Bridgeville, DE. Since last June we have had over 53,000 shots on the targets. No missed shots, no "dropped" shots. I would be very interested in the exact circumstances of what you describe. I am very suspect of what you describe as having happened.

Is there something that y’all do to keep updating the system ever so often that this range might not be doing? The match director yesterday mentioned resetting the sensors. Not sure if they have been re-set or a script run to debug since they were installed over a year ago. There was another target yesterday on this same range that was having the same problem. It sounds like a maintenance issue.

 

[WindSurgeon]

Not a fan of shooting on e targets. That rule where the RO comes and watches your next shot, then counts your "missed" shot as a miss if the system registers your observed shot is an inaccurate procedure. These systems have all sorts of bugs that paper does not. The evidence is all over this forum.

 

[Down South]

We have 10 of the HEXTA targets at Bridgeville, DE. Since last June we have had over 53,000 shots on the targets. No missed shots, no "dropped" shots. I would be very interested in the exact circumstances of what you describe. I am very suspect of what you describe as having happened.

Jeff,

I'm glad to hear you guys have never had a problem with the targets you have but what Wade (XTR) said happened definitely happened. Same thing happened to me a few months ago twice in the same match. Plugging along 10/X then bam, target says it can't resolve the shot or something to that effect, can't remember exactly what it said but something to this degree. This is why I will never travel across the country to shoot a national match on E-Targets. Too much time, money, etc. spent to get scored a miss and taken totally out of contention in the match. Just my .02

 

[Taildrag15X]

I think he's talking about the scorer, not the puller. The situation where you get to 20 shots in your ammo box and the scorer only has 19 on the score card. You usually shoot another shot and really hope you don't drop one.

Where we compete the puller also scores, due to low number of competitors.

 

[Matt P]

I haven’t shot on the Hexta targets, but according their claims they don’t have dropped shots. If there is a chance they drop shots too, then the range/MD ought to adopt the “fill in the highest in the group rule” or wonder why attendance is falling off.

I've fired 10 of 1000's of shots at the Hex system and never had an unexplained miss, I'm sure the designer here in Australia would be interested in looking at the log file.
Matt P

 

[Snuggie]

I understand that these e targets have a self healing membrane on them. But, when you have soooo many guys shooting soooo many X’s that membrane’s ability to “self heal” is greatly diminished or no longer exists. Therefore you have an open hole. The sensors are not gonna pick up the shots accurately. Just my two pennies....I may be wrong. But it does indicate poor maintenance if this is occurring.

 

[foxguy]

I'm new to F-Class shooting. (I shoot a 6MM-BR - Open Class). Just my NRA Member Opinion.
Let me say I have never shot an Electronic Target, But I'm thrilled that I will be shooting them in the Future.

If I had traveled across country to attend a NRA F-Class Match and I had a High Master Classification and due to an electronic target I scored a miss (due to a Malfunction of the electronic system) and the Range Masters & the NRA's scoring Rules, I would be very un-happy. I have to believe any High Master would feel the same way.

If I was scored in such a Manner and the range had had other occurrences of Electronic missed shots, I would probably take that range off my list to compete at until they proved they had Corrected the Electronic Target Issue.
If a Range is having that many missed shoots they need to get someone in to Test & Validate the target system.

I also have to think the NRA has to reconsider its rules on Scoring on an Electronic Scoring System missed shoot.
It sounds like the Electronic System indicated it missed the shot and the NRA says the Shooter gets scored a Miss.

Maybe, I'm not understanding something?

 

[XTR]

I understand that these e targets have a self healing membrane on them. But, when you have soooo many guys shooting soooo many X’s that membrane’s ability to “self heal” is greatly diminished or no longer exists. Therefore you have an open hole. The sensors are not gonna pick up the shots accurately. Just my two pennies....I may be wrong. But it does indicate poor maintenance if this is occurring.

HEXTA targets do not have a membrane. That is the Kongsberg system that the CMP has installed. The HEX system is a closed acoustic system, meaning the mics are inside of a box that the bullet passes through; the Shot Marker and Silver Mountain systems are open mic systems.

 

[DirtySteve]

If I had a good string going and it failed to pick up a shot but it did the following shot, and the failed shot was scored a "miss", I would not shoot where electronic targets are being used. Cause that is pure BS... It should be considered an equipment failure and given an alibi shot.

 

[corning]

Rule 10.17.8 (b) is a prime reason why e-targets are not ready for mainstream use. One should not receive a miss for a target "malfunction". If a shot does not register or display, it should be considered an alibi for the shooter, and the shot should be "re-taken".

 

[Keith Glasscock]

If I had a good string going and it failed to pick up a shot but it did the following shot, and the failed shot was scored a "miss", I would not shoot where electronic targets are being used. Cause that is pure BS... It should be considered an equipment failure and given an alibi shot.

There is another situation where a failure to register would be correctly scored a miss. I've seen a few bullets come apart in flight. Should we automatically give a Mulligan for that?

The simple answer is a witness sheet on the target. If a bullet gets there, it'll show on the sheet.

I've been proposing this idea for some time to significant resistance. In my mind, there needs to be some physical evidence of the bullet strike. For all of those that have sold the e-targets on the concept that they can increase range capacity and eliminate the need for delays to change or check targets, I'm sorry. I simply disagree with the idea that the systems can be used as an absolute authority without some accountability trail.

 

[JohnKielly]

If I had a good string going and it failed to pick up a shot but it did the following shot, and the failed shot was scored a "miss", I would not shoot where electronic targets are being used. Cause that is pure BS... It should be considered an equipment failure and given an alibi shot.

So what would you do with the same miss call on paper?

I've presided over 5 national & state championships here in Brisbane on Hexta targets and to date, we have not had a shot not scoring on the shooters' targets that could not been better explained by:

• An immediately identified crossfire onto an adjacent live target. It seems that the new process of moving your eyes from downrange to a monitor screen and back, will the added issue of the eye's focus going from long to short back to long sight rends to make some shooters less sensitive to where they're pointing their gun & this is exacerbated because you don't have a spotter in the target to identify it as yours.
• A crossfire onto a resting target or one in the progress of the new shooter's details being programmed in. In the first instance, the subsequent shot is not readily identified if there's nobody about to hear the Hexta shot call; in the latter case, the control PC has an input window covering the target diagram & the scorer is understandably distracted.
• Poor judgement winding sights, particularly at the beginning of a match or when a challenging change comes through. I recall one particular 1000 yard event where the syndicate owners were threatening to pull their targets down because so many shooters were chopping the target frame where the monitors are located about excessively or missing completely between targets. Our Hexta targets have a frame which is external to the maximum target dimension and hits in those locations signal as miss, probably hit frame. In any case they are way, way of centre.
• Nevertheless, there are instances where shots appear on a given target that are not acknowledged as a miss elsewhere, and this is somewhat more prevalent that "unexplained" misses. In an endeavor to resolve such issues (retrospectively) which allows us to counsel shooters & scorers (severely), the system shot shot log is searched to find an association between the time of strike on the subject target & shot cadence from adjacent shooters.

Maintenance quality of the targetry is obviously paramount. In the case of the set of targets that I am involved with, the following process is used:

• Two weeks or so before the major event, a 12 month dump of the system error log is sent to Hexta. From that they recommend the necessary adjustments needed for each & every target. This will include, for example, recommendations to replace sensors which are recording less than optimal recognition of shots fired - well one here and there might be accepted - and necessary correction of the target membrane (which incidentally, has a regular replacement algorithm).
• On a daily basis each evening, the day's error log is dumped and used for any corrections due to the day's attrition.
• Batteries are charged during the lunch break and overnight to ensure continuity of service.
• In the case when the transfer of data is delayed, or for any manageable reason, butts staff are available to interrogate individual targets.
• Live standby targets are available to protect against individual target failure.

We have had only one instance where we had to move shooters because of target failure, and that occurred because a shooter shot the side frame out of one target & while it still recorded his shots, it was recognizing through the open chamber, shots on the adjacent target as close misses. Once the chunk was replaced and duct taped that evening, the target remained in use for the duration.


So, back to my original question, there is a difference between paper & electronic targets, that being with paper targets, the marking is human and in most instances, shooters live with recorded misses because there's not a lot of wriggle room to bully the marker into changing his opinion, albeit he might be required to review his call. Individual ETs aren't staffed. The butts crew might be called in to comment on fall of shot where strike is not recorded during sighters but otherwise they patrol their block of targets to confirm all is in order.

I guess that's why some would prefer ETs to be declared dysfunctional.

 

[Bindi2]

The missed shot issue fits in the transonic area at long distance with a shot out centre. Two problems, one is maintenance and the other more powder or lighter bullet. Heavy atmosphere causes more issues at the longs with ETs than it is acknowledged.
The bullet must be sonic at the target all days not just sonic because some days it will be well under sonic.

 

[Mozella]

In fairness to Silver Mountain Targets, I feel compelled to report an improved experience from Yesterday (Sunday). Earlier in this thread I reported that on the previous day (Saturday) most of the 6 lanes reported at least one "failure-to-record" malfunctions; some more than one and a few had failures twice in a row. Not enough to ruin the match, but enough to be a bit of a PITA.

Yesterday we had 12 shooters using the same 6 lanes and as far as I know there were zero malfunctions. The range master reported that something was loose with the downrange antenna. He didn't go into detail, so I'm not sure if it was the antenna mount which could effect the antenna aiming or something loose with the antenna itself. In any event, he corrected the problem and the system functioned flawlessly on Sunday.