Educate me, new reloader, Classic Lee Loader

[Rat Rifle]

The first thing I bought after starting with the Lee Loader, back in the previous Millennium, was the Lee Auto-Prime. Primer seating is the weakest link in the Lee Loader process, In My Opinion.

 

[Lefty2506]

So, the Frankford Arsenal scale is a 50gram scale with a 0.01gram accuracy, and 0.1grain accuracy, and based on testing I watched from a couple of reloading channels, including ultimate reloader, the inexpensive digital scales that claim 0.001gram accuracy, and 0.01gr accuracy, don't come close to meeting that, so, after watching a lot of reviews, the Frankford Arsenal DS-750 seems to be the most consistent of the cheap, budget digital scales. But, yes, it's a limitation either way, and I agree with your 2nd paragraph, thanks!

I looked through the UR channel and only found Gavin reviewing an $8 scale that had lousy specs to begin with. I can't speak as to what any other youtubers have said or done. I can only speak of my own experience.

I've only had experience with 5 digital scales for reloading, and those 5 stretch over a period of 25 years. The first was an RCBS/PACT digital scale back in the mid 90s. Then I bought a Dillon Terminator scale in the late 90s, and added a Lyman Automatic Powder Dispenser (Gen 1) somewhere around '06 or '07. Somewhere in there I also tried a friends RCBS Automatic Powder Dispenser. With regards to the digital scales themselves, ALL of these systems performed identically. They were all accurate to +/- 0.1 grain, would take a few seconds to settle after dumping a charge, and were prone to drift frequently if I was trickeling directly into the pan on the scale even on the automatic dispencers. None of them stood out as being better than any of the others.

4 or 5 years ago my Dillon scale finally crapped out on me at a point where I needed to load up some ammo for deer season so I was in a bit of a hurry. I wasn't doing load development, just needed something to weigh charges for an already proven load, and I'd never bothered buying a beam scale like I always thought I should. I ordered a 50 gram scale from amazon for under $20 primarily because I could get it in 2 days. The fact that it was cheap didn't hurt either. My full intention was to replace my Dillon with something comparable, but the cheap little scale performed so well that I never bothered, and instead bought another cheap 100 gram scale from Amazon. The first scale did not come with a USB cable. I was in a hurry and it was just easier for me to throw a pair of AA batteries in it. Being an engineer who worked my way through college as a machinist, I first wanted to make sure the scale was reasonably accurate. It came with its own 50gram standard, but I wasn't going to trust that either. I had the standards that came with my Lyman and Dillon scales, plus I had the powder pans they came with and I had their weight (in grains) written on them. I did a quick calibration and checked the scale against my other standards and pans, and they were all on the money. In fact, the cheap little $20 scale was so repeatable for me, and settled so much faster than any other scale I'd ever tried that I bought another larger (100gram) version. The 100gram scale came with a USB cable. I started putting them both through their paces and what I found was that the USB power supplies (bricks, blocks, or what ever they are called) are cheap and put out dirty power which causes significant issues with the scales consistency. Energizer Lithium AA and AAA batteries, on the other hand, provide consistent, clean power and allow my 50 gram scale to be consistently repeatable within 0.02 grains. Does it drift occationally? Yes. My Dillon pan weighs somewhere between 124.80 and 124.82 grains. After weighting it THOUSANDS of times, I can say with confidence that my 50gram scale will weigh it as 124.78 to 124.84 grains with MOST of those readings being either 124.80 or 124.82. When the scale drifts, it will be off by more than 0.1 grains, and is normally off by more than 0.2 grains. A simple tare resolves the issue every time. I went through this same procedure for my 100gram scale and had similar results, but found that the accuracy is only half as good as the 50 gram scale which makes sense. I'm sure they are using the same load cells and circuitry for both and the 100 gram version is just spreading the same signal over a wider range which cuts its accuracy in half. The only thing I haven't tried is using a USB power bank to power the scales. In theory they should also provide clean power. I just thought of this idea so I'll have to look into it.

 

[IAm_Not_Lost]

I looked through the UR channel and only found Gavin reviewing an $8 scale that had lousy specs to begin with. I can't speak as to what any other youtubers have said or done. I can only speak of my own experience.

I've only had experience with 5 digital scales for reloading, and those 5 stretch over a period of 25 years. The first was an RCBS/PACT digital scale back in the mid 90s. Then I bought a Dillon Terminator scale in the late 90s, and added a Lyman Automatic Powder Dispenser (Gen 1) somewhere around '06 or '07. Somewhere in there I also tried a friends RCBS Automatic Powder Dispenser. With regards to the digital scales themselves, ALL of these systems performed identically. They were all accurate to +/- 0.1 grain, would take a few seconds to settle after dumping a charge, and were prone to drift frequently if I was trickeling directly into the pan on the scale even on the automatic dispencers. None of them stood out as being better than any of the others.

4 or 5 years ago my Dillon scale finally crapped out on me at a point where I needed to load up some ammo for deer season so I was in a bit of a hurry. I wasn't doing load development, just needed something to weigh charges for an already proven load, and I'd never bothered buying a beam scale like I always thought I should. I ordered a 50 gram scale from amazon for under $20 primarily because I could get it in 2 days. The fact that it was cheap didn't hurt either. My full intention was to replace my Dillon with something comparable, but the cheap little scale performed so well that I never bothered, and instead bought another cheap 100 gram scale from Amazon. The first scale did not come with a USB cable. I was in a hurry and it was just easier for me to throw a pair of AA batteries in it. Being an engineer who worked my way through college as a machinist, I first wanted to make sure the scale was reasonably accurate. It came with its own 50gram standard, but I wasn't going to trust that either. I had the standards that came with my Lyman and Dillon scales, plus I had the powder pans they came with and I had their weight (in grains) written on them. I did a quick calibration and checked the scale against my other standards and pans, and they were all on the money. In fact, the cheap little $20 scale was so repeatable for me, and settled so much faster than any other scale I'd ever tried that I bought another larger (100gram) version. The 100gram scale came with a USB cable. I started putting them both through their paces and what I found was that the USB power supplies (bricks, blocks, or what ever they are called) are cheap and put out dirty power which causes significant issues with the scales consistency. Energizer Lithium AA and AAA batteries, on the other hand, provide consistent, clean power and allow my 50 gram scale to be consistently repeatable within 0.02 grains. Does it drift occationally? Yes. My Dillon pan weighs somewhere between 124.80 and 124.82 grains. After weighting it THOUSANDS of times, I can say with confidence that my 50gram scale will weigh it as 124.78 to 124.84 grains with MOST of those readings being either 124.80 or 124.82. When the scale drifts, it will be off by more than 0.1 grains, and is normally off by more than 0.2 grains. A simple tare resolves the issue every time. I went through this same procedure for my 100gram scale and had similar results, but found that the accuracy is only half as good as the 50 gram scale which makes sense. I'm sure they are using the same load cells and circuitry for both and the 100 gram version is just spreading the same signal over a wider range which cuts its accuracy in half. The only thing I haven't tried is using a USB power bank to power the scales. In theory they should also provide clean power. I just thought of this idea so I'll have to look into it.

Yeah I feel like the FA has done what it advertises. I have it pass it’s quality control test before measuring any powder, and then occasionally throughout measuring I have to re-tare. But overall it seems consistent.

 

[Lefty2506]

Yeah I feel like the FA has done what it advertises. I have it pass it’s quality control test before measuring any powder, and then occasionally throughout measuring I have to re-tare. But overall it seems consistent.

Yeah, that's exactly how all of my other scales always performed as well. It's also why I was shocked that the cheap amazon scale did so much better.

 

[jds holler]

It's been a long time since I pounded any shells together with the system you're using, but something else just comes to mind that you may want to consider.

The work station, and surface that you are using should be very solid and well braced and supported so as to not rattle the whole house as you work. This is important not only for the ease and accuracy of your sizing, but also for the well being of your loved ones and neighbors.
The surface and support, and the type and weight of your hammer make quite a difference in the ease of using the Lee system. jd

 

[jwv2001]

I have to give you credit for what you have accomplished in your handloading experience.
My advice to you, is, don't get caught up in all the minutiae of the handloading game. The object of handloading is trigger time. Obtaining a consistent load, to develop your trigger time.
If you are a hunter, the only thing that matters is putting your shot within an inch of where you are aiming. Extreme spread and standard deviation don't really matter much. Heck, you're only going to need one shot. Because of trigger time.
Learn your rifle and your load at various ranges, trigger time.
The sense of accomplishment of making your own ammunition is fulfilling in its own right. In the end, it's the trigger time that gets you where you want to go.

 

[IAm_Not_Lost]

Yeah, that's exactly how all of my other scales always performed as well. It's also why I was shocked that the cheap amazon scale did so much better.

I think the issue is the continued consistency. The Frankford Arsenal is only about $10 dollars more than the cheapest of the Amazon scales, but it seems more consistent than the other cheap one I already had (a $15 dollar one). The $15 dollar one seems to wander more and needs to be double checked more. But yeah, it's amazing how good stuff is for very little money.

It's been a long time since I pounded any shells together with the system you're using, but something else just comes to mind that you may want to consider.

The work station, and surface that you are using should be very solid and well braced and supported so as to not rattle the whole house as you work. This is important not only for the ease and accuracy of your sizing, but also for the well being of your loved ones and neighbors.
The surface and support, and the type and weight of your hammer make quite a difference in the ease of using the Lee system. jd

Ha! That was literally the second thing I did after getting the setup, the first being trying to do it on the wood desk in my utility room. I promptly went outside, grabbed a piece of scrap 6" rectangular tube steel and two old 6" targets that each had a flat side still, and tack welded them onto the ends. That now sits next to the desk and is a rock-solid podium/pillar I can used to hammer on. Sits on top of the concrete floor and you can't hear it outside my room.

I have to give you credit for what you have accomplished in your handloading experience.
My advice to you, is, don't get caught up in all the minutiae of the handloading game. The object of handloading is trigger time. Obtaining a consistent load, to develop your trigger time.
If you are a hunter, the only thing that matters is putting your shot within an inch of where you are aiming. Extreme spread and standard deviation don't really matter much. Heck, you're only going to need one shot. Because of trigger time.
Learn your rifle and your load at various ranges, trigger time.
The sense of accomplishment of making your own ammunition is fulfilling in its own right. In the end, it's the trigger time that gets you where you want to go.

Hey thank you. You're absolutely correct. I just want to make sure there isn't a glaring issue. Obviously too it's fun to have a new thing to obsess and research over. With that said, I've learned enough times in medicine that, "you don't know what you don't know", so sometimes taking a step back and having folks do a once over is helpful.

 

[jds holler]

I have to give you credit for what you have accomplished in your handloading experience.
My advice to you, is, don't get caught up in all the minutiae of the handloading game. The object of handloading is trigger time. Obtaining a consistent load, to develop your trigger time.
If you are a hunter, the only thing that matters is putting your shot within an inch of where you are aiming. Extreme spread and standard deviation don't really matter much. Heck, you're only going to need one shot. Because of trigger time.
Learn your rifle and your load at various ranges, trigger time.
The sense of accomplishment of making your own ammunition is fulfilling in its own right. In the end, it's the trigger time that gets you where you want to go.

I got my 243 - and Lee Loader when I graduated high school. (Ruger M77) Slapped a Weaver K4 on it, and I was off to the races. That rifle shot so well, and fit me so good that I felt like the Hammer of Thor when I carried it.
It wasn't long till I could stand on my hind legs and keep my shots on a paper plate at a hundred yards, with most of them landing in the four inch center.

Back then, Speer bullets were 4-6 bucks a hundred, 4895 powder maybe 8 or 10, and primers .99 per hundred. I really gave that rifle a workout. My first several deer, coyotes, jacks, chucks, and even ground squirrels by the hundreds. jd

 

[JerkyFreak]

Use a nylon technical hammer or wooden mallet. Preferably a wooden round or beam for a working surface. Steel or metal does not work well as a surface.

Get a suitable ball powder that will give a moderate load when using the included dipper. You can use an extruded powder, but ball just measures so much more consistent.

Do the above then you will have a loading system that is EMP proof and portable. With this and a reasonable quality rifle and components you should quite easily get MOA at 300 yards.

 

[IAm_Not_Lost]

Use a nylon technical hammer or wooden mallet. Preferably a wooden round or beam for a working surface. Steel or metal does not work well as a surface.

Get a suitable ball powder that will give a moderate load when using the included dipper. You can use an extruded powder, but ball just measures so much more consistent.

Do the above then you will have a loading system that is EMP proof and portable. With this and a reasonable quality rifle and components you should quite easily get MOA at 300 yards.

Yeah I use a nylon mallet, but why isn't a firm flat steel surface ok? The only things that are against that are non-critical surfaces such as the back side of the priming chamber tool and the back of the decapping chamber.

I'm using ball powder, and I use the dipper to scoop out the approximate amount, but then finish with a digital scale for a more consistent load. I've found that no matter how perfect I am with the dipper (yes, dipping it in and not compressing the powder) that at best I'm seeing maybe 0.3gr-0.5gr differences in powder loads, and that's holding my tongue right and squinting my eyes. At worst it's more like 0.5gr to 1gr difference.

 

[pipe]

You can save money toward a press and dies by shooting cheaper bullets and save those expensive ones for hunting.

 

[IAm_Not_Lost]

You can save money toward a press and dies by shooting cheaper bullets and save those expensive ones for hunting.

Absolutely. Let me ask you a question then, how many rounds with a new bullet and load do you typically have to go through before you're satisfied with the load and can set it aside and feel confident it's good to go?

I've only been shooting the expensive ones as needed to verify loads and do some accuracy testing. Then I'll load up some right before my deer dates and verify everything and set the remainder aside.

 

[Dimner]

Absolutely. Let me ask you a question then, how many rounds with a new bullet and load do you typically have to go through before you're satisfied with the load and can set it aside and feel confident it's good to go?

I've only been shooting the expensive ones as needed to verify loads and do some accuracy testing. Then I'll load up some right before my deer dates and verify everything and set the remainder aside.

Depends on your requirements, your level of OCD, your level of reloading skill, and the time you have on hands. To find a load, It took me many more bullets when I was first starting out in reloading.

Today, If I were looking for a 1 moa load suitable at 0-250 yards on deer, and the end goal was have 25 rounds of the finished loads on hand (after load dev and sight in) I could do it with just a box of 100 as long as I did not have to change powders.

When I first started out (no Chrono, no accurate scale, no reloading software) it would have taken 300 bullets to be satisfied.

Nowadays, with hunting loads, I'm more interested in a lifetime of loads. So I'll buy 500 bullets at a time. Develop my load, and then load up the rest for hunting and practice. But I tend to over test when doing load development, because I enjoy load development and watching loads get into tune.

 

[IAm_Not_Lost]

Depends on your requirements, your level of OCD, your level of reloading skill, and the time you have on hands. To find a load, It took me many more bullets when I was first starting out in reloading.

Today, If I were looking for a 1 moa load suitable at 0-250 yards on deer, and the end goal was have 25 rounds of the finished loads on hand (after load dev and sight in) I could do it with just a box of 100 as long as I did not have to change powders.

When I first started out (no Chrono, no accurate scale, no reloading software) it would have taken 300 bullets to be satisfied.

Nowadays, with hunting loads, I'm more interested in a lifetime of loads. So I'll buy 500 bullets at a time. Develop my load, and then load up the rest for hunting and practice. But I tend to over test when doing load development, because I enjoy load development and watching loads get into tune.

Yeah, that's all I bought, 100 bullets of the 110 grainers, and another 50 of the 130 grainers. Trying to keep it budget. Got plenty left to have for hunting and some to play with for dialing in 300-400 yard shots.

 

[jds holler]

I'm using ball powder, and I use the dipper to scoop out the approximate amount, but then finish with a digital scale for a more consistent load. I've found that no matter how perfect I am with the dipper (yes, dipping it in and not compressing the powder) that at best I'm seeing maybe 0.3gr-0.5gr differences in powder loads, and that's holding my tongue right and squinting my eyes. At worst it's more like 0.5gr to 1gr difference.

That's about the resolution you're looking at with the dipper method, and probably not much worse than factory ammo specs.
You're doing about all ya can by holding your tongue properly, but the eye squint should come into play particularly when you're seating primers. jd

 

[JerkyFreak]

Yeah I use a nylon mallet, but why isn't a firm flat steel surface ok? The only things that are against that are non-critical surfaces such as the back side of the priming chamber tool and the back of the decapping chamber.

I'm using ball powder, and I use the dipper to scoop out the approximate amount, but then finish with a digital scale for a more consistent load. I've found that no matter how perfect I am with the dipper (yes, dipping it in and not compressing the powder) that at best I'm seeing maybe 0.3gr-0.5gr differences in powder loads, and that's holding my tongue right and squinting my eyes. At worst it's more like 0.5gr to 1gr difference.

As to working on steel. Knocking on it has a bounce and/or loud noise (on thin plate) or you start denting the non-critical surfaces after a while. A solid piece of timber reduces the noise level a lot and has shock absorbing properties without causing dents in your tools; almost like using a dead-blow hammer.

Found this passage in the book "Modern Reloading" by Richard Lee;

"Dean always felt no one could dip a charge quite as precisely as he. He would, and I have little doubt to this day still does, use a special technique. He pushed the dipper bottom first into the powder and let the powder flow into the mouth of the dipper. Then strike it off with one of his business cards and consistently get charge uniformity of 1/10 grain. I'm not telling any secrets, as Dean has published this method several times."

 

[jds holler]

A guy can also make custom dippers very easily, and trim them to get weights that the dipper set doesn't include. jd