Educate me, new reloader, Classic Lee Loader

[IAm_Not_Lost]

Hey everyone,

I have been lurking on this forum for some time, and everyone on here always seems to provide the most consistent information. So, I was hoping you could provide me insights on what I can expect with my current setup.

Just recently jumped into very limited reloading using a Classic Lee Loader. Built myself a new 308 Win do-it-all hunting rig from a Howa Superlite action and Stocky's stock, and I wanted some specific loads that weren't available commercially. So, I pulled the trigger on the Classic Lee Loader, their brass conditioning kit, powder scoop set, and a digital scale, all for about $90 bucks. The digital scale is a Frankford Arsenal and appears to get reasonable reviews and has been consistent in my use (but yes, I'm aware it's a budget pocket scale).

The load I wanted that wasn't available is 110gr Barnes all copper TTSX. The 130gr is available from factory, and certainly is a great option, but for medium sized deer and other small animals the 110gr is absolutely sufficient in my hunting experience, and will make for a lighter recoiling, flatter shooting round for out to about 325 yards.

I'm only reloading for this one bolt gun, and all brass started new and is only being reloaded for this one gun. Brass is from Sig, powder is Accurate 2230, primers are Winchester large rifle magnums (all I could find at the time). My current process is to punch out the old primers, clean the cases, trim them (the lee trimmer trims to 2.010, non-adjustable), clean primer pocket, chamfer/debur the mouth, and then reload by neck sizing, primer, powder, bullet. Bullet is being seated at Barnes recommended 2.735" COAL. I have found with 47.7gr of 2230 that I am getting an average of 3158fps. Roughly on par with what I would expect based on their load data.

For me, I am getting perfectly acceptable accuracy at 1.124 MOA (for an ultralight gun, my ability, and shooting setup available). SD's are around 15-17, and ES is around 50-65fps, on average. Now I know those numbers aren't great, but they about mimic decent quality factory loads in my experience when I have chrono'd factory stuff.

All I am looking to do is maintain this load, maybe tighten up the SD and ES, and occasionally load up some 130gr'ers for larger game. Thus far I've reloaded about 100 rounds and my load is roughly where I want it with regards to accuracy and velocity.

My big questions are these: What are the major items in this setup that are most detrimental to obtaining better SD's and ES's? What do I need to watch out for with regards to consistency? How many times can I reload my brass when I'm only neck sizing? Should I anneal my cases every 3-4 reloading's? Should I do it every time? Will I run into a point where I won't be able to easily chamber the brass without bumping back the shoulder? If all I want to do is maintain this load is there any issue with continuing to use the Classic Lee Loader?

I am fully aware this budget setup has limitations, but, within a reasonable context, I'm hopeful I can just continue to use it and all I'll need to do is occasionally get new brass and more loading supplies.

Thank you all, I really appreciate it.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

First things first.....why neck sizing your brass?

 

[Sandstorm]

Yea..this for sure will aid in getting the SD's and ES down....a step in the right direction.
Yea annealing every firing and a decent full lenght sizing die and a single stage press.....for starters.
Other than that carry on....if its working for now..but it will need full lenght sizing soon.

 

[IAm_Not_Lost]

First things first.....why neck sizing your brass?

Because it's just a Classic Lee Loader. It's not a press. I've watched that video and completely realize neck sizing isn't as good, but it's what I've got.

Just looking for advice on what things I can do within this setup to get it as refined as possible, or to understand better how long I can use each piece of brass before running into issues due to not having a full resizer. Or for example, how much variation is a budget digital scale going to give me versus a high dollar powder measure?

Just trying to keep this as simple and budget as possible. Within 100 rounds I've already paid for my setup plus the reloading components, since premium hunting Barnes hunting ammo is about $2.48 a round.

Appreciate you!

 

[1911nut]

Many years ago I used Lee “hammer” dies to load hunting cartridges, they killed game.
Neck sizing for a hunting round is okay, you might notice chambering gets a bit harder after a few loadings. Check your fired primers for over pressure signs. I would expect 10 loadings easy to get.
I don’t anneal, I shoot Lapua brass.

and the sinner I am- I have neck sized in the past with very good results.

5 shot groups neck sized before I knew better…. ….


I now usually bump shoulders.001” to .002” and get the same results.
The neck sizing hysteria is overdone.

 

[nakneker]

It sounds like you have a chronograph. Have you looked for a node in your rifle? It’ll help with your SD and ES.

 

[Sandstorm]

You will hunt fine with your current set up..the criters wont know the difference with what hit them.

 

[Lefty2506]

Honestly, I suspect that the limiting factor in your setup is your bullet mainly because it was likely designed for use in the 300 Blackout. The 130 is a step in the right direction, but its still really light for a 308 Win.

I'm not as opposed to neck sizing as some others are. If you're using a rifle with a chamber that was cut to the minimum specs and a FL sizing die that was cut to the max specs, then FL sizing every time is certainly the way to go. However, if you are running an old military cartridge like the 308 Win which has some rather generous tolerances to begin with, it's conceivable that neck sizing could give you better groups.

If you're wanting more consistent velocity, annealing will likely help, as will switching to a standard primer. How far are you currently jumping the bullet? If you're jumping them a long ways, that could be hurting you as well.

My big question here is WHY are you wanting to improve your SD and ES? At 325 yards, velocity variations don't make enough difference in your POI to notice, especially if you're capability from a solid bench is just over 1 MOA. Shoot groups at 300 yds, and if you're happy with them, keep doing what you're doing. If it ain't broke, don't fix it (or as we say at work, if it ain't broke, Engineering hasn't touched it yet).

On the other hand, if you're just wanting to get better for the sake of getting better, then welcome to the insanity In that case, start replacing everything (one component at a time), and pick up a couple of other powders and bullets to try. I'm not saying that you should stop using the 110gr and 130gr Barnes for hunting. I'm saying that you SHOULD add another projectile or two (and a couple powders to boot) for the sake of wringing all the accuracy you can get out of your rifle. Once you know what your rifle can do with a great bullet and a reload that you've tailored to your rifle, THEN you can decide whether or not you still want to hunt with the 110gr and 130gr bullets.

 

[IAm_Not_Lost]

Many years ago I used Lee “hammer” dies to load hunting cartridges, they killed game.
Neck sizing for a hunting round is okay, you might notice chambering gets a bit harder after a few loadings. Check your fired primers for over pressure signs. I would expect 10 loadings easy to get.
I don’t anneal, I shoot Lapua brass.

and the sinner I am- I have neck sized in the past with very good results.

5 shot groups neck sized before I knew better…. ….

View attachment 1588765
I now usually bump shoulders.001” to .002” and get the same results.
The neck sizing hysteria is overdone.

That's super helpful to have a reference point like that. Appreciate it. So, you didn't experience any split necks or anything after not annealing after 10 reloading's? No issues with consistency of the neck tension that caused measurable differences?

It sounds like you have a chronograph. Have you looked for a node in your rifle? It’ll help with your SD and ES.

I haven't. Since it takes a while to load with this setup, and generally trying to keep it budget, I'm not sure that I can get big enough data sets to really feel confident that I've truly identified some sort of node that is giving better SD's, ES's, and accuracy within the constraints of my loading and measuring equipment. If that makes sense.

Honestly, I suspect that the limiting factor in your setup is your bullet mainly because it was likely designed for use in the 300 Blackout. The 130 is a step in the right direction, but its still really light for a 308 Win.

If you're wanting more consistent velocity, annealing will likely help, as will switching to a standard primer. How far are you currently jumping the bullet? If you're jumping them a long ways, that could be hurting you as well.

My big question here is WHY are you wanting to improve your SD and ES? At 325 yards, velocity variations don't make enough difference in your POI to notice, especially if you're capability from a solid bench is just over 1 MOA. Shoot groups at 300 yds, and if you're happy with them, keep doing what you're doing. If it ain't broke, don't fix it (or as we say at work, if it ain't broke, Engineering hasn't touched it yet).

On the other hand, if you're just wanting to get better for the sake of getting better, then welcome to the insanity In that case, start replacing everything (one component at a time), and pick up a couple of other powders and bullets to try. I'm not saying that you should stop using the 110gr and 130gr Barnes for hunting. I'm saying that you SHOULD add another projectile or two (and a couple powders to boot) for the sake of wringing all the accuracy you can get out of your rifle. Once you know what your rifle can do with a great bullet and a reload that you've tailored to your rifle, THEN you can decide whether or not you still want to hunt with the 110gr and 130gr bullets.

So, to respond to a few of your points. The 110gr TTSX blue tip is designed for the 308 and higher velocities, they specifically note it as a 308 loading option. The Tac-TX is the one they typically list for 300 BO, and while reports vary, that allegedly has a lower expansion velocity to account for the low 300 BO velocity.

And yes, I was wondering how my 1:10 twist rifle would do with the lighter bullets, but it seems fine and no issues with over stabilization, clean crisp holes out to 200 yards. The 130's have become more and more popular in the 308, with a lot of folks using them as their go-to Elk load because it's so flat shooting out of 22" barrels (my barrel is 16", thus the 110's are nice for velocity for deer). Honestly, you have people loading the 308 with 130's to better velocity than I get with a 130 in my 270 Win. Sure, slightly different sectional densities, but still, a potent round, particularly with it being all-copper.

I will likely get better primers when I use up the Winchester, but gosh they're hard to find.

With regard to why I want better SD's and Es's, just because. I enjoy doing the research and tinkering. I actually really like the simplistic nature of the little reloading kit and was just wondering if there were any major - obvious - things I could do to improve a little bit. But yes, you're absolutely right, out to 300-400 yards it doesn't matter.

Yeah, I'll grab some more bullets at some point, but I've got enough of the 110's and 130's to play with for a while yet.

 

[Dimner]

I started where you are at.

As long as you are using your lee loader on brass that was shot from your rifle, you will be fine. I went at least 12 firings on neck sized 30-30 brass when I first started out. You can get this brass from either factory loaded ammo that you shoot, or virgin brass. I tried range pickup brass when I was using this process and results stunk.

The only reason I went to a press is that I was sick of using a mallet (so was my fam). When you decide to take the jump, you can get a lee single stage used for probably 50 or 60 bucks shipped. 308 dies used, everyone has them, I bet you can get some for 25 shipped.

But back to your original questions. I wouldn't worry about the number of firings as it relates to using the classic lee loader. You are going to run into variations in neck tension and cracks and splits in the neck before any sort of FL resize is needed.

As for ED/SD. Forget about it. I used to worry a lot about it and to be honest it's a red herring until you have benchrest quality equipment. Even then it can be a red herring. I know it's hard to believe. In my experience... I have had at least a dozen good loads with a meh ED/SD. And I have only had one good load with an amazing ED/SD. And honestly I think that was the quality of the powder more than anything else.

My suggestion is to follow Eric cortinas 100 yard load development instructions. That's the process I would depend on with your setup. Your limiting factor is the FA digital scale. The scale is only designed to have a specific resolution. (I forget what) So you are going to want to find a load that is tuned so any variances that the scale throws at you is negated when looking at your target results.

For example, if you are testing 5 shot groups with weights of 46.3, 46.6, and 49.9 grains of powder. Your scale might be measuring 46.4, 46.3, 46.2, 46.3, 46.3 for the 5 loads. And similar for the 46.6 and 46.9 loads.

So your ES/SDs will not be all that great. But there is a tuned load somewhere where that kind of 0.1gr +/- powder variance will work very well on target regardless of the ES/SD.

So follow this load development process... And you can ignore the ES/SD.

Long range load development at 100 yards.

So I ran a test on my 6.5 CM. I have been shooting Hornady Factory 147 ELD Match with 7 twist and getting amazing results at 2760 fps. See below for H4350 on 147 ELD. I am thinking 39.7 or 39.9 grain is best in vertical. I did not get a flattening of the Velocity until 40.7 and 41.1 but the...

forum.accurateshooter.com

 

[1911nut]

That's super helpful to have a reference point like that. Appreciate it. So, you didn't experience any split necks or anything after not annealing after 10 reloading's? No issues with consistency of the neck tension that caused measurable differences?

I don’t remember split necks. I used the hammer dies to load 22-250, 270 and 7 Rem mag. I killed coyotes and deer with those loads. That was around 1975, it was difficult with those dies to feel variations in bullet seating pressure. I did weigh each charge.

Those were hunting rifles, I remember they shot around 1 1/2” groups @ 100. The 22-250 shot a lot of groups around 1/2”.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

You also asked about your scale setup. I’m sure it will keep your loads consistent enough if you use it the same way every time. I don’t think it would vary from a high dollar scale by anything more than a tenth of a grain.

 

[IAm_Not_Lost]

My suggestion is to follow Eric cortinas 100 yard load development instructions. That's the process I would depend on with your setup. Your limiting factor is the FA digital scale. The scale is only designed to have a specific resolution. (I forget what) So you are going to want to find a load that is tuned so any variances that the scale throws at you is negated when looking at your target results.

For example, if you are testing 5 shot groups with weights of 46.3, 46.6, and 49.9 grains of powder. Your scale might be measuring 46.4, 46.3, 46.2, 46.3, 46.3 for the 5 loads. And similar for the 46.6 and 46.9 loads.

So your ES/SDs will not be all that great. But there is a tuned load somewhere where that kind of 0.1gr +/- powder variance will work very well on target regardless of the ES/SD.

So follow this load development process... And you can ignore the ES/SD.

Long range load development at 100 yards.

So I ran a test on my 6.5 CM. I have been shooting Hornady Factory 147 ELD Match with 7 twist and getting amazing results at 2760 fps. See below for H4350 on 147 ELD. I am thinking 39.7 or 39.9 grain is best in vertical. I did not get a flattening of the Velocity until 40.7 and 41.1 but the...

forum.accurateshooter.com

The powder measuring is definitely a frustration because while the digital scale does appear consistent and repeatable, it's tedious, and the precision is only so good. I compare it with the scoops and a second - even cheaper - scale that I already had, and it does appear accurate, but yeah, there is probably a 0.3grain spread at times between loads since it only goes to +/- 0.1grains. Good info.

 

[Lefty2506]

Your limiting factor is the FA digital scale. The scale is only designed to have a specific resolution. (I forget what) So you are going to want to find a load that is tuned so any variances that the scale throws at you is negated when looking at your target results.

For example, if you are testing 5 shot groups with weights of 46.3, 46.6, and 49.9 grains of powder. Your scale might be measuring 46.4, 46.3, 46.2, 46.3, 46.3 for the 5 loads. And similar for the 46.6 and 46.9 loads.

^^^^^^^ THIS^^^^^^^

I just looked up that digital scale, and yes, I'd replace that part first. You don't have to spend a bunch of cash for a lab quality scale either. You can get a cheap 50 gram digital scale off amazon that is very precise and repeatable. The key is to get a 50 gram scale and not a 100 gram scale. They both read out to 0.01 grain, but the 100 gram scale has half the actual resolution. The one I use only cost me $20, but it's no longer available (no surprise). Also, run it with good batteries, NOT a USB cable. With a USB cable, the incoming power is "dirty" which will cause issues with repeatability where as when using batteries, you get very clean DC power. I use Energizer Lithium batteries in my scale. I'm not sure if these are actual lithium batteries or not because they are marked as 1.5vdc, and lithium cells are generally between 3.2v and 4.1v depending on the chemistry and charge. Either way, I use them because Lithium batteries produce a more consistent (and higher) voltage through out the top 75% of their life where as the voltage from an alkaline battery drops roughly 30% during the first 10% of its use. The goal is for the incoming power to be as consistent as possible. Garbage in garbage out. Just make sure you take the batteries out when you're done so that they don't drain down, leak, and corrode the battery contacts.

Below is a link to a digital scale that I'd be willing to try if I didn't already have one.

Amazon.com

I'd also avoid using an actual trickler with a digital scale. EVERY digital scale I've ever used in conjunction with a trickler (including a couple of the more expensive automated systems), the trickler has caused the zero to drift a LOT. Get a 2nd pan to use with the scale, and write the weight of the pan on the scale with a sharpie and use it to keep track of when your zero drifts on you. Being off by 0.02 grains is no big deal, but when it's off by .06 grains or more, you can hit tare and re-zero before proceeding. Use the other pan to scoop small amounts of powder out or add small amounts of powder into the pan. I actually use 3 pans including the small one that came with the cheap scale. The others came from a Dillon scale and a Lyman scale. I keep a charge of powder in the small pan and use it to add from. My Lyman pan has a really narrow neck on the spout which makes it really easy to scoop out 2 or 3 kernels of stick powder, so I use it for moving powder into and out of my Dillon pan while it sits on the scale. After about 20 rounds, you'll have a really good feel for how much you need to add or remove from each charge to make it perfect.

 

[drop_point]

Honestly, I suspect that the limiting factor in your setup is your bullet mainly because it was likely designed for use in the 300 Blackout. The 130 is a step in the right direction, but its still really light for a 308 Win.

I'm not as opposed to neck sizing as some others are. If you're using a rifle with a chamber that was cut to the minimum specs and a FL sizing die that was cut to the max specs, then FL sizing every time is certainly the way to go. However, if you are running an old military cartridge like the 308 Win which has some rather generous tolerances to begin with, it's conceivable that neck sizing could give you better groups.

If you're wanting more consistent velocity, annealing will likely help, as will switching to a standard primer. How far are you currently jumping the bullet? If you're jumping them a long ways, that could be hurting you as well.

My big question here is WHY are you wanting to improve your SD and ES? At 325 yards, velocity variations don't make enough difference in your POI to notice, especially if you're capability from a solid bench is just over 1 MOA. Shoot groups at 300 yds, and if you're happy with them, keep doing what you're doing. If it ain't broke, don't fix it (or as we say at work, if it ain't broke, Engineering hasn't touched it yet).

On the other hand, if you're just wanting to get better for the sake of getting better, then welcome to the insanity In that case, start replacing everything (one component at a time), and pick up a couple of other powders and bullets to try. I'm not saying that you should stop using the 110gr and 130gr Barnes for hunting. I'm saying that you SHOULD add another projectile or two (and a couple powders to boot) for the sake of wringing all the accuracy you can get out of your rifle. Once you know what your rifle can do with a great bullet and a reload that you've tailored to your rifle, THEN you can decide whether or not you still want to hunt with the 110gr and 130gr bullets.

The 130 TTSX is similar in size to a 150 gr cup and core bullet. Its actually a GREAT .308 Winchester hunting bullet.

 

[jds holler]

Brings back fond memories of my first rifle reloading back in 1974. Mine was 243 Win. My first improvements were an Ohaus scale and the old Speer #8 book. I used only brass fired in my rifle, and was soon shooting some .5 MOA groups. back then we called them "dime sized". I've still got the old Lee kit, along with a truck load of other stuff that I wonder if I need. jd

 

[IAm_Not_Lost]

^^^^^^^ THIS^^^^^^^

I just looked up that digital scale, and yes, I'd replace that part first. You don't have to spend a bunch of cash for a lab quality scale either. You can get a cheap 50 gram digital scale off amazon that is very precise and repeatable. The key is to get a 50 gram scale and not a 100 gram scale. They both read out to 0.01 grain, but the 100 gram scale has half the actual resolution. The one I use only cost me $20, but it's no longer available (no surprise). Also, run it with good batteries, NOT a USB cable. With a USB cable, the incoming power is "dirty" which will cause issues with repeatability where as when using batteries, you get very clean DC power. I use Energizer Lithium batteries in my scale. I'm not sure if these are actual lithium batteries or not because they are marked as 1.5vdc, and lithium cells are generally between 3.2v and 4.1v depending on the chemistry and charge. Either way, I use them because Lithium batteries produce a more consistent (and higher) voltage through out the top 75% of their life where as the voltage from an alkaline battery drops roughly 30% during the first 10% of its use. The goal is for the incoming power to be as consistent as possible. Garbage in garbage out. Just make sure you take the batteries out when you're done so that they don't drain down, leak, and corrode the battery contacts.

Below is a link to a digital scale that I'd be willing to try if I didn't already have one.

Amazon.com

I'd also avoid using an actual trickler with a digital scale. EVERY digital scale I've ever used in conjunction with a trickler (including a couple of the more expensive automated systems), the trickler has caused the zero to drift a LOT. Get a 2nd pan to use with the scale, and write the weight of the pan on the scale with a sharpie and use it to keep track of when your zero drifts on you. Being off by 0.02 grains is no big deal, but when it's off by .06 grains or more, you can hit tare and re-zero before proceeding. Use the other pan to scoop small amounts of powder out or add small amounts of powder into the pan. I actually use 3 pans including the small one that came with the cheap scale. The others came from a Dillon scale and a Lyman scale. I keep a charge of powder in the small pan and use it to add from. My Lyman pan has a really narrow neck on the spout which makes it really easy to scoop out 2 or 3 kernels of stick powder, so I use it for moving powder into and out of my Dillon pan while it sits on the scale. After about 20 rounds, you'll have a really good feel for how much you need to add or remove from each charge to make it perfect.

So, the Frankford Arsenal scale is a 50gram scale with a 0.01gram accuracy, and 0.1grain accuracy, and based on testing I watched from a couple of reloading channels, including ultimate reloader, the inexpensive digital scales that claim 0.001gram accuracy, and 0.01gr accuracy, don't come close to meeting that, so, after watching a lot of reviews, the Frankford Arsenal DS-750 seems to be the most consistent of the cheap, budget digital scales. But, yes, it's a limitation either way, and I agree with your 2nd paragraph, thanks!

The 130 TTSX is similar in size to a 150 gr cup and core bullet. Its actually a GREAT .308 Winchester hunting bullet.

Agreed! In some cases the 110gr Barnes TTSX is almost the same length as a lot of 150gr's, coming in at 1.05", and the 150gr is 1.176" long, so, about the same as some of the longer 150 gr's. Great rounds, each with a retained weight on game similar to rounds about 30 grains heavier.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Brings back fond memories of my first rifle reloading back in 1974. Mine was 243 Win. My first improvements were an Ohaus scale and the old Speer #8 book. I used only brass fired in my rifle, and was soon shooting some .5 MOA groups. back then we called them "dime sized". I've still got the old Lee kit, along with a truck load of other stuff that I wonder if I need. jd

1972 for me,also a .243. My limitations, mom and dad telling me to stop making a racket(10pm). And I had NO scale, used the dipper. I would get a box of factory ammo for Christmas, so for the first couple years brass was reloaded often. Rifle was a Win 670. I was shooting Red Fox.

 

[jds holler]

1972 for me,also a .243. My limitations, mom and dad telling me to stop making a racket(10pm). And I had NO scale, used the dipper. I would get a box of factory ammo for Christmas, so for the first couple years brass was reloaded often. Rifle was a Win 670. I was shooting Red Fox.

Yeah, I had exactly three boxes of factory shells, and those 60 brass were well used. I didn't know there was such a thing as "shoulder bump" or that I might ever need it.

When Sierra invented their little 60 gr hollow point, I thought I had a 22-250. Actually started getting some "no exit" coyotes. It was pretty ugly when they did exit. I can't imagine what some of your foxes must have looked like. Fur prices were pretty good back then, and I spent my time with a needle and thread. jd

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

I shot a 70 gr hollow pt(Speer ?) I learned how to sew pelts. The 243 went down the road, for a 17 Rem, very little sewing after that. More hunting, more fox,more money. RCBS rockchucker with the 17R purchase, still have it,use it and a 2nd one.