EDM machining

[Raythemanroe]

Why would it be a throwaway?

Are you saying when there barrel gives up you would cut the receiver off?

Ray,
Have you ever shot out a hunting barrel? I still think he asked if it can be done.

No I have not, My hunting guns or most anyone's don't get that much use unless your talking chucks but I wouldn't go to that kinda trouble for a hunting gun! I have had thoughts of the this topic but didn't think it feasible! I would however like to see the end result if somebody pulls it off!

 

[ebb]

I know that when the threads are cut on the receiver and the barrel that they are not 100 % engagement no matter how good a machinist you are. Then when put together the error is doubled cause the barrel has the same error as the receiver threads. What if the receiver had a hole with no threads and it was perfect ( or real close ). Then the barrel was cut with a tennon that had no threads but was a size that was an interference fit and one was heated and the other frozen and they were put together and allowed to come to room temp. I believe that there would be no room for the slop that the threads had. Would this work? I know that Harold Vaughn's book talked about a savage I think that it had a barrel and receiver that were one and he said it was his most accurate gun.

 

[Bert]

I am also a toolmaker and like cncmill said yes it can be made but you are not going to want to pay for it. The first question is why even bother? If you have ever worked steel you would know that as soon as you put a large hole in the extra long barrel blank/ new action it more than likely will not be strait or round anymore even if it is just a single shot without a mag cut. The time that it would take in an edm machine would pay for a pile of barrels and custom actions that Will shoot smaller than most men can hold. oh wait i did just think of a rifle that the action and barrel are 1 look at the new in line muzzle loaders.

 

[Bert]

Still only as accurate as the strait diameter that is turned on the action and the barrel. If you want to get crazy accurate grind the threads O.D. and I.D. to a class fit. If someone can not turn threads accurately what makes you think they can turn a strait diameter close enough to tolerance for a shrink fit?

 

[Toolbreaker]

Wire/ram EDM is a good process for many, many things, but I'm thinking that this isn't one of them. I'd think that leaving the threads as a class 2 fit, along with an accurately ground/turned register with a close fit on both receiver and barrel to insure alignment would give the best results. If done properly, all geometry from the barrel bore to the bolt raceways could be held in alignment within .001", plus or minus a bit. This would still take a real careful hand, though. Tolerance & error stacking is the deal killer here.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Yes, some if not most muzzle loaders are built this way(one piece barrel/receiver), and I'm positive that I've seen some older rimfire rifles that were, also. The big difference is the locking lugs and raceways, in a standard two lug, front locking bolt, configuration vs. the rf or mz.
http://www.knightrifles.com/bighorn-carbonknight-th/

 

[M-61]

I know that when the threads are cut on the receiver and the barrel that they are not 100 % engagement no matter how good a machinist you are. Then when put together the error is doubled cause the barrel has the same error as the receiver threads. What if the receiver had a hole with no threads and it was perfect ( or real close ). Then the barrel was cut with a tennon that had no threads but was a size that was an interference fit and one was heated and the other frozen and they were put together and allowed to come to room temp. I believe that there would be no room for the slop that the threads had. Would this work? I know that Harold Vaughn's book talked about a savage I think that it had a barrel and receiver that were one and he said it was his most accurate gun.

One (or more?) of the German makers uses the process of heating the receiver and the inserting the barrel. I do not think the barrel is even cooled much less frozen. Since the bolt lugs lock into the BARREL and not the receiver this is even more insurance the barrel could not loosen.
Earlier Mercedes Benz torque converters starter rings are merely heated with a torch, picked up quickly with welding gloves and dropped over the torque converter. There is nothing else securing it ....no bolts..studs..nothing. In all my years doing this I never saw even ONE fail from dislodging nor slipping. Secure? Yes. Neat idea? Sure. Necessary or better than bolts? I don't think so. Cost effective? Not a chance with the precise machining involved.

 

[butchlambert]

Lots of starter rings on domestic cars are shrink fit.

 

[M-61]

Lots of starter rings on domestic cars are shrink fit.

I only worked on Benz's and nothing else for over 45 years so my experience is limited only to that brand..

 

[rogn]

Every ring gear that was not welded to a flexplate or other is shrink fit and yes Ive seen 2 fail in about 25 years in all manner of vehicular/ engine work. Question I have , would the material used for a barrel be too soft to use for locking lug abutments? I can see where thge annular, collet tipe locking used in some euro systems would work just due to the contact area, but would a low # of rotating lugs be problematic?

 

[savagedasher]

Remember a ring gear is 36'' long. Good Shooting Larry

 

[Bert]

All i have left to say is those that think this is better than the current action / barrel system get your check book out and show us. As for the shrink fit idea why? we cant get a good fit with threads?

 

[ebb]

Bert have you ever seen or owned a gun that has had ground threads? I have some guns that are factory actions with match barrels built buy top notch gunsmiths (national record holders) , and one complete custom gun built buy one of the best smiths that has ever walked the earth. I have never seen or heard of one having ground threads. If I'am completely ignorant about this method please get me up to speed. But I don't see how threads could screw together with out clearance, and clearance would make a joint that has movement or slop. I am not a gunsmith and don't claim to have the answers I was asking a question, if there is a reason this wont work tell me what it is. I do have a lathe and a milling machine and I will be trying it out, when I have some time to devote to the project. If I will be wasting my time explain why and how please. thank you mark

 

[D-mon]

JB weld it !!! ;D

Just kidding.
You could silver solder your threads.

As to the one piece barrel/action:
You could have a barrel blanks made up, cut the chamber and machine a rear lug bolt design receiver. You could use a CGinch bolt.
It would then be easy to machine the lugs abutment on the rear of that action.
It would then be easy for an EDM machine to cut those lugs recess.

ND

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The hardest part would seem to be the lug recess. Build it with and interrupted thread like an artillery piece.
By the way, I think a threaded joint has more than enough stability for what we are using it for, so long as it is done properly.

 

[Bert]

I have not seen a barrel and action with ground threads. This was only a suggestion to those that think there is too much slop in threads. I also have custom actions and premium barrels that have been smithed by one of the best in the country very good fit on threads. There are specs for ID and OD threads per class of fit. Ground threads can be held to a much closer tolerance than turned or milled threads. But you would end up with a fit that is impractical for a rifle application kind of like building a rifle with a one piece barrel and action cost is too high for no gain. Can this be done sure with enough time and money anything can be done. I am not knocking the current process to barrel a rifle just giving my two cents about doing it differently. Have a great smith do the work and you will have equal results!!!!!! For those that think the threads are too sloppy keep searching for a better way to attach two pieces of steel i will spend my time on the range.

 

[butchlambert]

+1 Bert.