E-Target Certification

[Ned Ludd]

A skill that should remain in BR, and not be required or even useful for HP shooting.

I agree completely, and would even go so far as to add that shooting at a much slower cadence (such as pair firing) is FAR more difficult than machine gunning rounds at a target, once you have acquired basic shooting skills. This is simple fact because a slower firing cadence requires much greater wind reading skills than simply picking a condition and getting off as many shots as you can while it lasts.

 

[KenOath]

The poll has closed and seems clear that the majority that voted would like to see ET certification...

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

Looks like the majority abstained from voting I surely hope there's more than 64 people interested otherwise it seems a good waste of time.

 

[Monte F]

Here's a fun anecdote. I was scoring for a top shooter at the Worlds in 2013. He fired his first shot and we waited for the target to be serviced. And waited. And called for a mark. And waited And called for a mark. And waited. You get the drift. It took almost 5 minutes to get the target serviced. In the meantime, the shooter was cursing and swearing up a storm. Thankfully it was all in French so the shooters around us were not offended or disturbed except for just the noise. Unfortunately, I speak French, so I listened to all this diatribe and it was funny. This guy never repeated himself and described the pullers and their ancestors' reproduction protocol in incredibly vivid detail. (I still think the saddle on the pig was improbable.)

It's too bad there was not a blood pressure cuff to be found; I'll bet we could have recorded new records.

I just hurt myself laughing and pissed my pants!

 

[Bindi2]

Swindles other's out of their rightful place in the standings? How's that work in your mind? I think having an extra sighter when someone crossfires would be a distinct advantage over your competitors when conditions are changing. I can imagine how a teammate that isn't in the running for a match could give one a huge advantage during a critical moment in a match.

I'll disagree on your assessment of fast shooting skill. It is a symptom of a lower skill level that is exhibited by the use of a crutch (fast shooting).

Why would one shoot fast if they have the skills to read the wind? By fast I mean more than one shot every 7 seconds.

A shooter who is awarded a higher score than they actually shot by the cross fire can move up the ladder that's how.
You obviously have not seen or scored for a fast shooter using a S A bolt rifle. 12 shots fired in 59sec score 59.7, two sighters ten to count. I have also scored for 10 shots fired in 61 seconds score 60.10. Two different shooters.
If that is a crutch I could do with a couple.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

A shooter who is awarded a higher score than they actually shot by the cross fire can move up the ladder that's how.
You obviously have not seen or scored for a fast shooter using a S A bolt rifle. 12 shots fired in 59sec score 59.7, two sighters ten to count. I have also scored for 10 shots fired in 61 seconds score 60.10. Two different shooters.
If that is a crutch I could do with a couple.

Thank you for so clearly describing the type of machine-gunning that the majority of shooters in the US would like to avoid.

I've scored for shooters that want to shoot that fast. It goes like this: Bang 1.3 sec flight time, dirt flies at berm, .3 second puller reaction time, target goes down and back up in 5 seconds, I see target emerge, .3 second reaction time, I call "ten, one on" (1 second), shooter's .3 sec reaction time, Bang 1.3 second flight time, .3 second puller reaction time, target goes down and back up in 5 sec. I see target emerge, .3 second reaction time, Bang, 1.3 seconds into flight I call "X two on."

As you can add up, the shooter realistically can't shoot ten shots faster than 79-80 seconds. If the shooter accelerates, at some point we get to:

I see target emerge, Bang, my reaction time ends .6 seconds into flight (multiple stimuli) As the target falls into the pits, I call "What was that one?" If the shooter notices and tells me, I write it down. Otherwise, I wouldn't want to cheat him, so I wait until he gets up and comes back to sign his scorecard to ask "When are you going to fire those last two shots?" This, of course, is a joke. I call shots much slower than that. If the shooter decides to shoot before I call the score of the last shot, well, I guess he or she must simply accept what I write down. You see, it's like an electronic target that has had more than one shooter or isn't perfectly aligned. You can't challenge the value of a shot once it's in the scorebook (electronic or otherwise).

To your point about cross-firing: Cross-firing can be nearly eliminated by simply taking a moment before firing to check one's target number board.

Ultimately, this whole thread was about encouraging the United States National Rifle Association to develop a program for ensuring accuracy of target systems used in competition in the USA. We can sit around and pick the nonsensical part of the other country's governing body apart, but that does little for the sport.

 

[powderbrake]

Looks like the majority abstained from voting I surely hope there's more than 64 people interested otherwise it seems a good waste of time.

I abstained from voting because I do not have sufficient experience in long range or high power competition to make an informed decision. I am very interested, and will continue to follow the thread.

I do own a ShotMarker target which I use, and I am very impressed with it's performance. It makes things like ladder testing and group sizes quite easy.

 

[6BRinNZ]

I agree completely, and would even go so far as to add that shooting at a much slower cadence (such as pair firing) is FAR more difficult than machine gunning rounds at a target, once you have acquired basic shooting skills. This is simple fact because a slower firing cadence requires much greater wind reading skills than simply picking a condition and getting off as many shots as you can while it lasts.

Yip I have shot on ETs with no delay for a while (years) and believe that is a hindrance to my wind reading ability. I've brought in plotting to force me to slow down and make a call and have to roll with the wind cycles
The tech aspect is a huge leap forward in that I can examine the shoot post as I capture every string to file.

A shooter who is awarded a higher score than they actually shot by the cross fire can move up the ladder that's how.
You obviously have not seen or scored for a fast shooter using a S A bolt rifle. 12 shots fired in 59sec score 59.7, two sighters ten to count. I have also scored for 10 shots fired in 61 seconds score 60.10. Two different shooters.
If that is a crutch I could do with a couple.

Bindi you contradict yourself.

On one hand you say a delay will penalise the shooter as they won't know which shot is theirs if both are presented (which is actually how it happens now on paper under ICFRA). Then in another thread you say it will help them get up the ladder as they get the higher value shot (which is how it happens now on paper under ICFRA)

Putting shots down without the score being called is a fundamental change to the sport. I like ETs but I'm not keen on that coming in.

Seriously - just present your experiences and leave it at that. Don't tell others what can or cannot be done. As you stated you've never shot on a system that handles crossfires. The tech and peoples understanding of what is important and would work has moved on significantly from 5 or more years ago.
As an aside Geoff from OZ said he fixed the crossfire dilemma 10 years ago.

 

[JohnKielly]

Help me clarify.

What's the difference between duty of care when a body purchases an ET system & certificatio0n?

 

[Bindi2]

Yip I have shot on ETs with no delay for a while (years) and believe that is a hindrance to my wind reading ability. I've brought in plotting to force me to slow down and make a call and have to roll with the wind cycles
The tech aspect is a huge leap forward in that I can examine the shoot post as I capture every string to file.


Bindi you contradict yourself.

On one hand you say a delay will penalise the shooter as they won't know which shot is theres' if both are presented (which is actually how it happens now on paper under ICFRA). Then in another thread you say it will help them get up the ladder as they get the higher value shot (which is how it happens now on paper under ICFRA)

Putting shots down without the score being called is a fundamental change to the sport. I like ETs but I'm not keen on that coming in.

Seriously - just present your experiences and leave it at that. Don't tell others what can or cannot be done. As you stated you've never shot on a system that handles crossfires. The tech and peoples understanding of what is important and would work has moved on significantly from 5 or more years ago.
As an aside Geoff from OZ said he fixed the crossfire dilemma 10 years ago.

By not having the delay most times a good scorer knows who owns which shot so the correct shot is allocated to the shooter if not reshoot, not the higher value as the rules now dictate.
The scorer is not there to hinder the shooter but help by identifying the correct scoring shoots as his the monitor is the scorer the person is only the check scorer . Yes you are correct about not firing until the score is called so be on the ball. I have said the scorers job will be more intense.
Yes Geoff from Oz has sorted crossfires in his system. Management has to make decisions based on all the systems out there otherwise some will have to be replaced that are already in place.
There are far bigger issues as yet not seen by new to ETs shooters which will pale into insignificance if a 7 second rule is put in place.

 

[chkunz]

This and the other threads on E targets that I have read have focused on mostly accuracy and a couple of other user preferences and I do not think I have any more to learn from reading more replies on these issues. I would like to hear some reports on how the various brands compare in other areas specifically installation and maintenance. How do the various brands compare on ranges where they must be set up and removed for each use, our club uses a military range and when we leave for the day or weekend the range has to look like we were never there. What are the estimated maintenance cost per year? Also current prices including complete systems and various replacement parts might be helpful. Should I start another thread on these topics?

 

[Bindi2]

This and the other threads on E targets that I have read have focused on mostly accuracy and a couple of other user preferences and I do not think I have any more to learn from reading more replies on these issues. I would like to hear some reports on how the various brands compare in other areas specifically installation and maintenance. How do the various brands compare on ranges where they must be set up and removed for each use, our club uses a military range and when we leave for the day or weekend the range has to look like we were never there. What are the estimated maintenance cost per year? Also current prices including complete systems and various replacement parts might be helpful. Should I start another thread on these topics?

A new thread.

 

[GSS]

This and the other threads on E targets that I have read have focused on mostly accuracy and a couple of other user preferences and I do not think I have any more to learn from reading more replies on these issues. I would like to hear some reports on how the various brands compare in other areas specifically installation and maintenance. How do the various brands compare on ranges where they must be set up and removed for each use, our club uses a military range and when we leave for the day or weekend the range has to look like we were never there. What are the estimated maintenance cost per year? Also current prices including complete systems and various replacement parts might be helpful. Should I start another thread on these topics?

I 2nd the new thread for that discussion

 

[chkunz]

A new thread.

Thanks, I have started the separate thread and we will see if we can keep it on some other topics relative to E targets.

 

[chkunz]

As stated above, I have started a new thread to talk about other issues not related to ET "accuracy". Before I leave this thread, however, I will make a comment about accuracy measurements.

Not many people have the expertise or experience to do meaningful accuracy testing and data analysis as it relates to ETs so there is a lot of bad reporting in this area. Our club has bought one Shotmarker system and we have done some testing and have found that it is accurate enough for our application and accurate enough to meet NRA requirements as they are currently written.

In a previous life I worked as a "Rocket Scientist" and have a lot of experience in accuracy testing and data analysis so I am comfortable with what our club is doing with our ET and our understanding its accuracy. Actually the correct term is data uncertainty if you decide to look up the term and I would recommend that you do look it up.

If you are using ETs and would like to test its accuracy look for someone in your group that has the technical background to guide that effort, bad data is worse than no data at all.

One last point that seems difficult for some folks to understand, when doing ET accuracy testing you are comparing a paper target to the ET virtual target and some of the uncertainty in the analysis is getting the alignment of the two as close as possible. But here is the point I am making, in actual match use this alignment is no longer significant, in fact most clubs intentionally misalign the two to keep from blowing out the X ring.

The sport is moving to ETs now that there are units for sale that are in the price range that many clubs can afford. Our challenge is to make the transition to ETs and make the sport all it can be with the new technology.

One of the best lessons that I have learned in life was the story of "Uncle Remus and the Tar Baby." Do not take a swing at the tar baby, you will only get stuck up and the more you swing the more stuck up you get. I may have just violated that lesson but at least this is my only swing.

Best wishes to all.
Clyde

 

[Bindi2]

chkunz checking the targets is easy. Put a new face on the target then shoot, record the X and Y coordinates for each shot. Make an overlay the same size as the target face used( cooking paper) one you can see through. Divide into 4 equal parts plot the shot coordinates on this then overlay on the target face moving it for best fit. The first thing you will notice is the centre of the target is not X marks the spot. The acoustic centre could be 25mm+ round. This on a new target will show as a small advantage to the shooter. We have also noticed that the acoustic centre moves a little during the day but this does not effect the repeatability of the target recording the shots. We have seen the odd shot out wide that is off but they all have been to the shooters advantage but still within single digit numbers. These comments are for sealed sound chamber targets.
If the repeatability of a target changes during the day or over time the frame is the big suspect as it is not staying square on one or more plains. Flexing or warping.

 

[GSS]

Excellent Post Clyde.
You make many great points and it sounds like you have the background to determine that the system you are using meets you and your clubs needs.

As you stated. it is accurate enough for our application and accurate enough to meet NRA requirements as they are currently written.

It's awesome there are products out there that fully meet our needs that we don't have to spend $9k or more per firing point to employ.
That price point is out of the question for most clubs and individuals I know.

Thank You,
George

 

[GSS]

Below is the latest public information release from the NRA

https://competitions.nra.org/competition-resources/rule-books/

https://competitions.nra.org/media/7934/2019-high-power-update.pdf



High Power Book Electronic Rules

1. Page 13 after Rule 4.1 add the following:

4.1.1 Electronic Targets – Targets used in electronic target systems will faithfully conform to the paper target descriptions and dimensions contained in these Rules.

4.1.2 Electronic Target Systems – Where electronic target systems are being used, only

NRA-Licensed and Certified electronic target systems shall be used in NRA Registered

Tournaments and NRA sanctioned State, Regional and National Championship Tournaments. NRA Approved Tournaments and other events where national records are not at issue may use electronic scoring systems that are not NRA-Licensed and Certified. NRA-Licensed and Certified Electronic Target Systems shall meet all minimum requirements set forth elsewhere in these Rules.

4.1.3. NRA shall be responsible for the development, implementation and administration of a process for licensing and certification of electronic target systems in conformity with these Rules which is fair and equitable.

1. Page 21 after RULE 8.2(a) add the following
   
   (1) Two or more competitors on the Firing Line - The time allowance will be 45 seconds per shot for all ranges. The time allowed starts from the command to commence fire and the target is raised in the case of the first shot by the first competitor. On subsequent shots, the time allowed starts from the time the target has been scored and recorded for the previous shot. When a competitor has been timed by a range official and has exceeded the allowed time limit, the competitor will be warned ONE time without penalty. When a competitor exceeds the allowed time after the first warning, the range official will forfeit the value of that shot for that competitor.
   
   
   
   
2. Page 25 after Rule 9.25 add the following:
   
   9.25.1 Firing During 7-Second Delay Using Electronic Targets – No competitor will deliberately fire during the 7-second delay applicable to F-Class competitions when electronic targets are in use. All such unauthorized shots shall be scored as misses.
   
   
   
   
3. Page 26 After Rule 9.27.1 add the following:
   
   9.27.2 Willful Use of Subsonic Ammunition on Electronic Targets – When electronic target systems are used, no competitor shall knowingly use ammunition which is subsonic at the time it impacts the target or reaches the target line. Subsonic rounds may cause damage to target systems and may result in erroneous readings.
   
   
   
   
4. Page 32 10.7.1 Substitue (e) as follows:

(e) Failure of electronic target system Reletter current (e) to (f)


6. Page 34 & 35 remove the note and (a) under Rule 10.17. Under 10.17.1 add the following: (a). Environmental Requirements: (i) The System must be capable of successfully surviving longterm sustained storage temperatures between -40C(-40F) and +50C (+122F) without suffering damage; (ii) The System must be capable of successful operation at temperatures between 15C(+5F) and +45C(+113F). The Manufacturer of each System must divulge the frequency and power ranges of all transmissions to ensure that the System can be configured so as NOT to interfere with any existing local transmitting or receiving facilities, and must be capable of continuous successful operation in the presence of any local radar, radio, television or other common electronic transmission or emissions. The System must be capable of successful operation in conditions of light rain, moderate rain and heavy rain.

Change current paragraph (a) to (b) to read as follows: Electronic scoring targets must be capable of consistently scoring shots to within .25 inches of center-of-shot accuracy under all conditions at all distances at which the NRA Sanctioned rifle competition will be conducted.

Change current paragraph (b) to (c) to read as follows:

All target units must provide a black aiming area corresponding in size to the black areas of the respective competition targets (Section 4 Targets) and show a nonreflective, contrasting white or off-white area surrounding the black aiming area. Targets used for F-Class competition must be of the same size and dimensions as regular paper targets and must display and be calibrated for conventional scoring rings visible to the competitor through the rifle scope, including the “X” inside the XRing, or the “V” inside the “V-Ring” on International targets



Change current paragraph (c) to (d) and (d) to (e) to read as follows:

(e) Every shot hitting an electronic target must have its result, with its location and value, displayed on a monitors placed on the firing point for both the shooter and the scorer.



Change (e) and (f) to (f) and (g), respectively. Change (g) to (h) as follows:

1. If practical, in In F-Class and other competition a seven (7) second delay in the presentation of the last shot fired on the firing line monitor shall be used. may be made available for use by the competitor as an option on the monitor. When used in F-Class competition and whenever possible and practicable, the system should be programmed so as to display the words “Waiting” during the 7- second delay and to show a digital count-down of the seconds, and where additional shots arrive at the target during the “Waiting” period, those shots should be displayed as well as the initial shot. The purpose of this procedure is to assist with the shot value determinations in cross-fire situations. Any shots fired during the mandatory 7-second delay are record shots and shall be scored as misses.
   
   
   
   Change (h) to (i) as follows:
   
   
2. The scoring system must be capable of identifying and recording sighting shots and transferring sighting shots to shots of record when convertible sighters are used.
   
   
   
   Under Rule 10.17.2 change as follows:
   
   Substitute following paragraph in
   
   (c) When using an electronic target system, the scorer shall use normal scoring procedures using a paper score card. The paper score card is the official record for the match.
   
   
   
   Delete (d) & (e)
   

1. Page 36 Rule 10.17.4 Change paragraph (d)(1) as follow:
   
   (1) If the range Officer confirms that the competitor did not fire the disputed shot(s), the shot must be deleted.
   
   
   
   
2. Page 37 Replace Rule 10.17.6 as follows:

10.17.6 Insufficient Hits in Rapid fire
(a) Initial inquiry refer to Rule 10.17.8. If a protest is filed proceed as follows: In the case of hits all in the 9 and/or 10 ring refer to rule 14.11. (b) Refer to rule 14.12 for insufficient shots fired.

1. If a refire is authorized refer to Rule 9.14.
   
   
   
   Rule 10.17.7 change as follows:
   
   In the event of a failure of a SINGLE target on the range:
   
   
   
   
2. In the event a single target fails and the Electronic Scoring target cannot be repaired within five (5) minutes, the competitor will be moved to a reserve position and when he is ready to resume, and additional five (5) minutes will be added to the competition time remaining (three (3) minute preparation time and two (2) minutes for 2 sighting shots).
   
   
   
   Change Rule 10.17.8 as follows:
   
   In the event that a competitor fires a shot which does not register on the electronic scoring system, the competitor must immediately inform the nearest Range Official of the failure. A Range Official must make a written note of the time of the complaint. One or more Range Officers must go to the firing position for the purpose of determining whether the competitor has cross-fired. If no cross-fire can be identified on adjacent targets or targets elsewhere on the range, and the competitor has all of his previous shots in the black, he will be directed to fire another shot. If it registers he will be given the value of that shot to replace the missing shot and be directed to continue to fire. If it does not register he will be directed to Rule 10.17.8(a)
   
   
   
   (a) The competitor will be directed to fire one more aimed shot at his target. If the value and location of the shot is registered and displayed on a monitor, the unaccounted for shot will be scored as a miss. A competitor whose shot has been scored as a miss, above, may register a protest and continue to fire the required number of rounds under protest. Upon completion of fire range officials shall make appropriate technical inquiry of the system to determine whether the shot should remain as a miss or scored in some other appropriate manner.
   
   
   
   Delete (b) and(c)
   
   Renumber current (d) to (a)
   

1. Page 45 Rule 14.3.1 Change the first sentence to read as follows:
   
   Scorers’ Duties—Scorers are required whenever targets are scored electronically, in the pits or on frames.
   
   
   
   
2. Page 46 Rule 14.3.1 Change paragraph (e) to read as follows: (add in)
   
   When targets are scored electronically, the scorer will also enter the score on the permanent paper score card according to the procedures set forth in subsections (a), (f), (g) and (h) of this section; and the paper score card will become the official record of the score fired unless otherwise challenged and appropriately modified. It is the scorer’s responsibility to faithfully observe the shooter to guard against crossfires and spurious electronically recorded shots. In their capacity as match officials, scorers are responsible for enforcing the 45-second rule applicable when firing two or three competitors from the same mound (firing point).
   
   Reletter paragraph (e) to (f) and (f) to (g) and (g) to(h)
   
   
   
   
3. Page 54 Rule 17.1 add the following paragraph.
   
   
   
   (a) National records may be set on electronic target systems only where NRALicensed and Certified targets systems are used and where the procedures set forth elsewhere in the Rules for the use of electronic targets and systems are used. *Note: This rule will be effective January 2020.