It is humorous to me that so many people talk about the science of reloading and doing proper research but when an industry professional speaks they are dismissed so handily.
That means the cases are formed in stages but the total time in a die is about half a second. From straight cylinder to tapered and necked case is only 4 or 5 stages. If there was any significance to the “dwell” theory, then the presses would have to run much slower.
And in the process of all that dwelling the case is annealed at least 4 times if not more.
Agree 100%... most of your stuff is for you only. As you so often say: you are the only one !.!.!ebb,, most of this stuff is not for everyone...
Dillon's case lube. Pretty good for mass production. Make sure you get that slime off the cases before you fire them.I do a lot of resizing rifle cases on a Dillon 550. When I'm in a hurry I crank through the press cycle pretty fast, size/advance/size/advance nonstop. I've seen that I do get about a half thou more shoulder bump on average if I slow down and do a full hard stop with rest at the bottom of the press stroke.
Now is there a difference between 1 second and 3 seconds dwell time? Not sure about that.
Other big factor I notice is case lube. First two or three cases through the die seem to get slightly less shoulder bump than after the die gets freshly/thoroughly lubricated. This can be between a half thou and a full thou. I'm using the alcohol/lanolin mix lube.
Dillon's case lube. Pretty good for mass production. Make sure you get that slime off the cases before you fire them.
No you are wrong which is typical for someone with an opinion that is not based on real experience.
Measurement to the nearest .0001" is far more accurate than your sense of touch. I do not have a means to measure with that accuracy but if I did I would sure use it.
Even so measurement to .001 is a real number that is quantifiable.
Measurement to touch does nit mean as much since touch from one person to the next is highly variable.
Like I said you can make it work or not depending on your personal agenda.
BTW gauging or gaging has different meanings. What do you call the use of a Hornady Lock and Load Case Gage? Gaging of course....
L-O-freaky-NELL!!!
Sentence by Sentence ya's just can't make this hole any deeper if ya's tried!
OK, OK, I'll just refrain...... measure away my man, measure away![]()
As a doubting Thomas you would not believe anything we say either way.
If you do not have a highly accurate and consistent way to measure shoulder location there is no way for you to learn or be convinced or what the real facts are. The tool I use is a Stoney Point case gage now sold as the Hornady Lock and Load Case Gage. With my calipers it appears to repeat to .001".
It is easiest to understand this concept when forming cases. Some of these guys will have indeterminate or no results because they try to speak while only bumping shoulders of work hardened cases back about 1 or 2 thousandths. You also cannot just size 2 or 3 cases and get an accurate understanding either.
You also need to be honest with your own opinions and agenda. After working on process tooling, set up and development in manufacturing for more than 40 years I have seen many cases where personnel make a process fail because they don't like the process or that it was not their idea. That is just humans being contrary.
I first studied this phenomenon in detail nearly 20 years ago after getting the Stoney Point tool. I formed 100 new Hornady Frontier .303 Brit cases to 6.5X53R Dutch Mannlicher. My initial goal was 100% yield. With the cost of new brass so high and so limited in availability I had no interest in scrapping any or buying more.
I stripped the Mannlicher bolt to obtain the best feel of case fit.
I started developing the process using older cases that had been fired a variety of times. I initially tried to form the cases in one pass which resulted in accordioned shoulders except with a few FC cases.
The process that worked easily used 3 intermediate dies before the final sizing with a trim die. During process development I ruined about 15 old cases before I got all good ones. Then I switched to forming the new cases.
As I found the exact die setting on the trim die I checked the case shoulder position repeatedly as I snuck up on the exact feel I wanted in the rifle. Not every case reacted the same way to the final forming stroke. I has cases vary and because I measured each one immediately I began to notice variations in shoulder position corresponded to the force I had to apply to the press handle. All of the following affected the shoulder position:
1. More or less lube
2. Faster or slower sizing strokes
3. More dwell , less dwell or no dwell at the top of the stroke.
4. Multiple sizing strokes at the same setting vs one stroke. You might say more strokes vs fewer strokes.
I was working with new brass and you might assume that it was all the same.state of anneal. But you have to assume fired cases with different work hardening states will cause variations too.
When forming these cases a fast sizing stroke gave a longer case.
Too little lube gave a longer case. No dwell gave a longer case. One stroke gave a longer case than 2, 3 or 4 strokes. Beyond about 3 or 4 strokes the cases never got any shorter.
There is always the possibility of variation if your sizing technique dies not form the case shoulder to the fullest extent of your die setting. To consistently get the full sizing permitted by your die setting you need the following:
1. Uniform lube
2. Slow steady sizing strokes
3. About 3 to 4 seconds dwell at the top of each stroke. It really does take time for the brass to creep to its final position.
4. After the first stroke retract the case about 1/2" turn the case 120 degrees. Slowly size again with the dwell. Then retract and turn the case another 120 degrees. Then size again with dwell. Now check the case length from the head to the shoulder. It should be exactly the same as all other cases sized with the same technique.
If this seems like a lot of busy work you have to ask yourself if you want it fast or if you want it right. You do not get both at the same time if your calipers are honest.
It takes very little difference in technique to make the process vary by .002". Over the 100 formed cases mentioned I measured each one and checked the fit in the chamber 100% as each case was formed. When I got a case that was .001 to .002 longer it always corresponded to something that accidentally varied. Those longer cases were sized again until they matched the rest. As I learned what caused the longer cases I changed my technique and the variations went away.
I learned that lube, speed of the sizing strokes, multiple strokes and dwell time could all contribute to a much more exact and robust sizing process.
If you test enough cases you can reach your own conclusions.
How much time does a stamped cartridge brass coin spend in cup and draw dies before its head and primer pocket are completely formed with rimming, bunting and punching dies, then it's straight cylinder body is tapered, shouldered and neck trimmed?the ammo company presses operate at about 50 strokes per minute. That means the cases are formed in stages but the total time in a die is about half a second. From straight cylinder to tapered and necked case is only 4 or 5 stages.