DUPONT #1
- Thread starter 2023Mar
- Start date
Wow, you may have to find someone that practices Mediumship for an answer to that one.
This may help.
Dupont No.1 Rifle Powder Load Data Sheet
Anyone ever see one of these before? Wonder if it looked like this. https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/powders/smokeless-powders-transition-years
forums.sassnet.com
Phil Sharpe's 1937 book has some data for DuPont #1. It was introduced 1894 & discontinued 1926. There's some load data, but no velocity data to go with it. For example... in 22/15/60 Stevens with a 60 gr lead bullet, Unique @ 3.4gr gave 1400fps @ 15K breech pressure, SR80 @6.0gr gave 1450fps (estimated), Sharpshooter @5.7gr gave 1410 fps @10.2K breech pressure, while DuP #1 @ 5.0gr has no velocity data. FFg @15gr is also a listed load with no velocity data.
Unique is still available. I can find no direct replacements for any of the other powders. It reads like something from the old testament with all the begets & begats, but nothing in a straight line from #1 to anything we might have today.
Using the 22/15/60 data, if my math is right a charge of Unique @ 68% of the #1 charge could be a safe place to start.
For 25/25 Stevens the ratio is 5.6 Unique vs 12.0 of #1 which is less than 50%, so maybe the 68% was a bit optimistic.
Some more information about the intended use might get you a better answer. If you're looking a safe alternative to shoot I'm sure someone with Quikload will run one for you with more data.
Unique is still available. I can find no direct replacements for any of the other powders. It reads like something from the old testament with all the begets & begats, but nothing in a straight line from #1 to anything we might have today.
Using the 22/15/60 data, if my math is right a charge of Unique @ 68% of the #1 charge could be a safe place to start.
For 25/25 Stevens the ratio is 5.6 Unique vs 12.0 of #1 which is less than 50%, so maybe the 68% was a bit optimistic.
Some more information about the intended use might get you a better answer. If you're looking a safe alternative to shoot I'm sure someone with Quikload will run one for you with more data.
Looking at the range of Black powder firearms that this powder for recommended for I doubt that any one single powder is available today that would work effectively in 45-70 case and a 25-20 case at around 25,000 PSI. Back when those cartridges were designed around black powder the case was probably designed around the required capacity. I would not attempt to make any correlation around any load data based on the #1 data.
This may help
sites.google.com
Chasing the 44-40 - Smokeless Powders Transition Years
Early Smokeless Powder Powder Cans with load data DO NOT USE THIS AS MODERN LOAD DATA UPDATED 2/16/2023, 7:15am Transition from the Black Powder era to the Smokeless Powder Era
sites.google.com
divingin
Gold $$ Contributor
Way off-topic: How did they calculate or measure velocity back then?
Ballistics - Clocking Bullet Speed - Guns and Ammo
William L. Casteel wrote 'How fast do she go? and How do you know? ' in the October 1970 issue of G&A. Casteel examined how bullet ballistics are measured.
www.gunsandammo.com
divingin
Gold $$ Contributor
Ballistics - Clocking Bullet Speed - Guns and Ammo
William L. Casteel wrote 'How fast do she go? and How do you know? ' in the October 1970 issue of G&A. Casteel examined how bullet ballistics are measured.
Well, that was an interesting read. Thanks!
It was a few years before my time
, but from reading old books there were several ways to approximate velocity which would be considered crude today.The Flintstone method was using a pendulum of known weight & measuring how far it was deflected by a hit at a known distance.
There's always the measuring bullet drop at distance method if BC is known. A much less precise method than today.
Early chronographs used replaceable screens much in the same way our more modern versions operate... start & stop time. It was reportedly a PITA & expensive replacing the screen after every shot.
Homer Powley (& later Bob Hutton) made a slide rule type device in the more recent past ('50s or 60s) that has been eerily accurate in my experience. Powley's original was for IMR powders with Hutton's added chart using other powders available at the time. The predecessor of Quick load.
Maybe some other methods too, but you get the idea.
Well, to directly answer this question...the answer would be no. However.......it is still a good opportunity to look into the history and see what powder may best replicate.
What cartridge would we might be talking about that would be a candidate for such a powder?
A while back I located a "wrapper data sheet" for the red can dupont No. 1. Of course would be listed the cartridge for which it was best used.
Of the cartridges listed for such use, the 45-70-405 would be the most popular used today. Winchester used this powder for their 45-70-405 factory loads. It is more than likely that Winchester replaced this "bulk for bulk" powder with "Sharpshooter", a "bulky" perforated disk granulation, after their acquisition of Laflin & Rand.
Laflin & Rand manufactured this type of perforated disk powder in several different granulations; Sharpshooter, Lightning and W-A .30.
Sharpshooter was the coolest shooting, made for black powder cartridges while Lighting was made for 30 cal cartridges like the 30-30 and 303 Savage. The hotter burning powder was W-A .30 and made specifically for the Colt machinegun and the 30-40 Krag.
From here I really don't know the powder replacements for the 45-70 but I do for the 44-40 and should be similar.
SR80 around 1913 was a little more dense than No. 1 but still a "bulky" powder and a tad darker in whiteish color than No. 1.
Slower burning rifle powders used for the 45-70 for the Trapdoor Springfield would be my guess. Reloder 7 etc. would be as close as you could get.
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dellet
Gold $$ Contributor
That load data could help a lot.
It would seem that #1 was discontinued basically because it was not stable. It broke down easy and changed the burn rate. Warnings in Sharpe’s book advised loading no more than the day before shooting, because cartridges rolling around broke down the powder. One of the few places that actually back up what is now mostly considered an old wives tale.
I load for a number of the cartridges listed and ones similar to others.
25-20 single shot, 25-21-86, 25-25-86, 32-40, 38-55 even the 25-11-65 which is a rimfire.
The loads above would be very close to 4759, sadly also discontinued but popular between the wars. The other powder of the time and has been my choice since, is 4227. Loading cast bullets, with what would be similar or slightly faster velocities than the original black powder loads
Some of those numbers might be a bit hot for a weak action with 4227. Too many other variables.
For those that aren’t familiar, the cartridges listed are caliber, powder charge, bullet weight. Makes it pretty easy to see that the DuPont #1 charges were about 40-45% by weight.
This is why a pressure trace system is likely in my near future. Bryan’s work comparing Blackpowder pressures is worth reading for any one who shoots the old cartridges. Many of the 32’s, 38 special, 45 Colt.
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Sharpe did claim that the bulk powder would crumble. I dissected several 44-40 cases from a 1914 box for testing last year or so and found no crumble and no dust in the primer pockets. However, this was Dupont No. 2. The powder was however subject to absorbing moisture if hunting or outside for long periods of time. I do know John Kort would dry out his No. 1 and No. 2 for testing. I did not and the performance was as if new.
Reloder 7 is probably the slowest that would be good for the 45-70. If I recall correctly I use 4198 for my dad's 1886 loads.
Handloading and using this "new" bulk for bulk powder as well as SR80 is where folks gets confused on loading for volume or for weight.
Reloder 7 is probably the slowest that would be good for the 45-70. If I recall correctly I use 4198 for my dad's 1886 loads.
Handloading and using this "new" bulk for bulk powder as well as SR80 is where folks gets confused on loading for volume or for weight.
- Black powder was loaded by weight by the factory and compressed for the bullet to fit. In the field BP was loaded by volume.
- This new Dupont "bulk for bulk" powder occupied than same volume as BP and was loaded by volume like black powder would be loaded by volume in the field, it was not to be crushed like BP could be.
- SR80, also a rock powder like BP but whiteish in color, was more dense than Dupont No. 1 and No. 2 but looked just like it. Although it was "bulky", it was more dense and was measured by weight, not volume.
- Sharpshooter was also a "bulky" powder but more dense and measured by weight.
- With the 44-40, a caseload of Reloder 7, the bullet sits nicely on top of the uncompressed powder just like it would with Dupont No. 2. Reloder 7 is an almost volume for volume load for the 44-40. However, the burn rate, burn characteristics and other modern chimerical differences does make it a much different powder and such loads for the 44-40 in my tests push the 13,000cup max pressures. Old manuals called for 15,000cup/16,000cup rifle max loads with many powders as normal loads.
Here is the topic I was looking for. John Kort also replies and says that 4198 does have a similar burn rate.
Here is a link to the topic. https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sh...-1-Smokeless&p=1100320&viewfull=1#post1100320
Here is a link to the topic. https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sh...-1-Smokeless&p=1100320&viewfull=1#post1100320
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