I am very interested in the SCATT shooter training system. But it looks like you must dry fire to use it. If so, I've heard that repeated dry fires can damage the firing pin on a rifle. I've also heard that dry firing is the only way some people can practice without going to the range when it's inconvenient, and they never had any problems at all. I know there are snap caps for dry firing purposes, but not in 6.5x47L. Will dry firing cause any damage?
Dry firing damage?
- Thread starter schumi
- Start date
Actually there is a company making snap caps in several uncommon calibers. I think it was Harbor Arms or something like that.
Harbour arms
http://www.harbourarms.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1
http://www.harbourarms.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1
schumi,
I can't tell you how many times I dry-fired my centerfires; thousands. I don't it with rim fires, though.
I can't tell you how many times I dry-fired my centerfires; thousands. I don't it with rim fires, though.
fdshuster said:
This ^^^^
A short addition to my above comment, not the best choice of words. Did not mean to come across as a smart-a**.
When I was heavily into match bullseye pistol competition, dry firing was a big requirement and I sometimes made my own snap-caps by cutting a piece of rubber & fitting it into the primer flash hole of an empty case. Worked fine with the 45ACP. For the 22 rimfire's I kept a fired empty case in the chamber, and when it became really smashed, changed it with another.
Both methods worked well to cushion the hard hits of the hammer against the firing pin. The firing pins on the High Standard Military Models had a reputation for breaking at the point where they smack against a stop shoulder in the slide, so we all carried spares.
When I was heavily into match bullseye pistol competition, dry firing was a big requirement and I sometimes made my own snap-caps by cutting a piece of rubber & fitting it into the primer flash hole of an empty case. Worked fine with the 45ACP. For the 22 rimfire's I kept a fired empty case in the chamber, and when it became really smashed, changed it with another.
Both methods worked well to cushion the hard hits of the hammer against the firing pin. The firing pins on the High Standard Military Models had a reputation for breaking at the point where they smack against a stop shoulder in the slide, so we all carried spares.
Because of a medical condition I was unable to shoot for six months. I set up my bench in my basement and startred dry firing at a small target at 50 ft. In that six months I dry fired over 5000 times. When I was able to get back to the range I was pleasantly surprised I lost none of my skill level and even improved it. I have continued my dry fire regiment and get to the range as much as possible. The way I look at it how much damage can you do. Easy enough to replace the firing pin and spring if or when needed.
Tim: You did not mention if the dry firing was with a center or rim fire, but keeping an empty case in the chamber is especially important with a rimfire.
With a rimfire, if there is no empty case in the chamber, there is a very good chance the tip of the firing pin will hit the face of the barrel, and over time, will create a dimple on the face of the barrel. Custom built pistols ( like High Standards built by John Giles) are sometimes modified to prevent that from happening, but with a factory chambering, it will happen. Mis-fires are sure to result then.
What do they say: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"?
With a rimfire, if there is no empty case in the chamber, there is a very good chance the tip of the firing pin will hit the face of the barrel, and over time, will create a dimple on the face of the barrel. Custom built pistols ( like High Standards built by John Giles) are sometimes modified to prevent that from happening, but with a factory chambering, it will happen. Mis-fires are sure to result then.
What do they say: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"?
I have used a Scatt maybe 5 times per week for the past 18 months (that's when I purchased it). So far, this has been exclusively with a .22 Anschutz round action. I purchased and use a dryfire pin which is shorter (you can make one or purchase one). Firing pins can be expensive and can fail through cracks at the junction where they widen (Anschutz) and may possibly damage the chamber rim. Use of a spent shell for .22 is ineffective for anything more than a couple shots. As the rim flattens, it just won't extract.
When I get my Palma rifle put together next month, I will use it with the Scatt as well, but plan to just shoot with no modifications on an open chamber. Like the other poster noted, I also shot Bullseye comps for years and at that time dryfired the .45 daily a kazillion times with no issues whatsoever. With regard to the Scatt, it is not a substitute for live firing, it is better! It has taught me more about proper technique than anything else as variables can be isolated and examined.
Regards - Dennis L
When I get my Palma rifle put together next month, I will use it with the Scatt as well, but plan to just shoot with no modifications on an open chamber. Like the other poster noted, I also shot Bullseye comps for years and at that time dryfired the .45 daily a kazillion times with no issues whatsoever. With regard to the Scatt, it is not a substitute for live firing, it is better! It has taught me more about proper technique than anything else as variables can be isolated and examined.
Regards - Dennis L
fdshuster said:
Trust me, you didn't come off as a smart-a**. I've done what you mentioned before with the empty in the chamber. I was cautioned on it that after a while the firing pin could pierce the spent primer. (How, I don't know. The pin would have to grow, wouldn't it?!) And I have substituted an eraser for the primer before. It works for a few, before the eraser may as well not be there. I have an Anschutz .22 and practice with it, dry firing. I was only cautioned about the high power dry firing.
I dry fire my AR many thousands of times. I have broken firing pins, but after 10,000+ rounds. An AR pin costs about $7, and is easy to replace, and is much cheaper than that amount of ammo. When I was shooting a M70 bolt gun for XTC, I also dry fired thousands of rounds. I occasionally broke a pin, but they were the Tubb type, which is very light. The standard M70 pin never broke. Once again, the pin was way less expensive than that amount of ammo.
As other have said, rimfires are different. Most will damage the rim cut in the barrel. Anschutz pins are designed to be just short of touching the chamber rim cut, so there is no damage. You can use a shorter pin, which you can buy or make, but its not absolutely necessary.
Dry firing has been a major element in improving my shooting. Using a trainer is even better.
As other have said, rimfires are different. Most will damage the rim cut in the barrel. Anschutz pins are designed to be just short of touching the chamber rim cut, so there is no damage. You can use a shorter pin, which you can buy or make, but its not absolutely necessary.
Dry firing has been a major element in improving my shooting. Using a trainer is even better.
DennisL; That's exactly what I liked about the spent rim fire case in my High Standards. After a few "clicks" the empty case would remain in the chamber so I could pull back the slide to recock the hammer. When I was done I used a small wooden dowell to push the spent case out.
A friend brought a used Anschutz 22 bolt-action that he had recently bought, reporting that he was constantly getting mis-fires and thought there could be something wrong with the chamber.
We checked it with my Hawkeye borescope, and before even entering the chamber ( they're not just for looking in bores), we both saw a very large dimple smashed into the face of the barrel, right under where the firing pin strike would be. He walked away with some serious repairs required.
Tim: I made a couple of "snap caps" for the 223 Rem. and 45ACP using a very hard rubber, tightly fitted to the primer pocket, cut to size with an Exacto knife, and to this day, they remain as good as new.
A friend brought a used Anschutz 22 bolt-action that he had recently bought, reporting that he was constantly getting mis-fires and thought there could be something wrong with the chamber.
We checked it with my Hawkeye borescope, and before even entering the chamber ( they're not just for looking in bores), we both saw a very large dimple smashed into the face of the barrel, right under where the firing pin strike would be. He walked away with some serious repairs required.
Tim: I made a couple of "snap caps" for the 223 Rem. and 45ACP using a very hard rubber, tightly fitted to the primer pocket, cut to size with an Exacto knife, and to this day, they remain as good as new.
Schumi - Go and immediately tell your wife that you cannot live another day without an electronic training system. It is the single best shooting purchase I have made other than my rifle. I have a setup in my basement for 10 meters, but it can work in different room configurations. The target dot is scaled to be exactly the same for my regular aperture setting and I have adjusted the lighting so the appearance to outside shooting seems similar. All of my other gear (mats, shooting glasses, gloves, etc) is the same except I have my laptop to my right that displays the digital target and tracings. If you have ever shot on electronic targets (SIUS) as at Ft Benning, having a digital monitor off to the side is about the same. I use the 50 Meter International target simply because it is the most challenging and revealing, but the center is the center and it doesn't really matter. The tracings are just proportional whether shooting 50 meters or 1000 Meters.
With total absence of wind, recoil and all possible ammo/barrel variations, it becomes uniquely possible to focus exclusively on position and technique that live firing will otherwise mask. Minute changes in clothing, sling adjustment, head position, grip and so forth can be studied for impact on hold. Pulse impact can be tuned/reduced. Optimum hold time can be assessed. Accuracy of aiming can be correctly assessed since bullet impact can lie. Trigger pull, follow-through, and the list goes on. Training daily has improved my endurance considerably such that the quality of my shots at the end of long strings are the same as early ones. I can also determine if there are any subtle changes to NPA as the string progresses (if the group starts to shift). Most notably, the traces don't lie. I obtain an absolute portrayal of where I was aiming when I pulled the trigger. My perception and belief of what I have just done can in fact be something quite different in reality. And it often is. I am frequently amused during matches with the common explanations about why bullets impact anywhere but the center of the X-ring. I have learned over and over that shots I believe to be centered when released are indeed not. And it has nothing to do with the wind, powder charges, atmospheric density and so on.
My approach is to work on some specific technique or skill each session on the trainer. I can come back each day to see if the outcomes obtained are sustainable and reliable. Then, I can go to the range on the weekend to determine if these findings carryover to live fire practice. If so, then any new changes may become match worthy. It's just a process and a structure that I feel comfortable with. You asked about the benefits of all this to my shooting. I have only shot smallbore prone for a few years and am just about to venture into centerfire. I shot pistol before that. I was most fortunate to make the Dewar team last year and won a share of a national championship (metallic sight team championship). I only mention this because I believe that my progress is directly attributable to my training strategies including the electronics and frequent dryfiring.
Sorry for the length - Dennis L
With total absence of wind, recoil and all possible ammo/barrel variations, it becomes uniquely possible to focus exclusively on position and technique that live firing will otherwise mask. Minute changes in clothing, sling adjustment, head position, grip and so forth can be studied for impact on hold. Pulse impact can be tuned/reduced. Optimum hold time can be assessed. Accuracy of aiming can be correctly assessed since bullet impact can lie. Trigger pull, follow-through, and the list goes on. Training daily has improved my endurance considerably such that the quality of my shots at the end of long strings are the same as early ones. I can also determine if there are any subtle changes to NPA as the string progresses (if the group starts to shift). Most notably, the traces don't lie. I obtain an absolute portrayal of where I was aiming when I pulled the trigger. My perception and belief of what I have just done can in fact be something quite different in reality. And it often is. I am frequently amused during matches with the common explanations about why bullets impact anywhere but the center of the X-ring. I have learned over and over that shots I believe to be centered when released are indeed not. And it has nothing to do with the wind, powder charges, atmospheric density and so on.
My approach is to work on some specific technique or skill each session on the trainer. I can come back each day to see if the outcomes obtained are sustainable and reliable. Then, I can go to the range on the weekend to determine if these findings carryover to live fire practice. If so, then any new changes may become match worthy. It's just a process and a structure that I feel comfortable with. You asked about the benefits of all this to my shooting. I have only shot smallbore prone for a few years and am just about to venture into centerfire. I shot pistol before that. I was most fortunate to make the Dewar team last year and won a share of a national championship (metallic sight team championship). I only mention this because I believe that my progress is directly attributable to my training strategies including the electronics and frequent dryfiring.
Sorry for the length - Dennis L
fdshuster said:
I used to do the same but filled the primer pocket with GE Silicone Rubber caulk.
.
The new official US distributor of SCATT in the USA located in Miami, Florida - Scatt USA LLC.
http://www.scattusa.com
http://www.scattusa.com
jonbearman
I live in new york state,how unfortunate !
I bought a mark2 ruger .22 from a retired police officer and took it out as I eagerly wanted to try it. The first time I dropped the slide it went off and I almost shot my foot as it went full auto on me.It turns out through dry firing he peened the hammer end right over and it was a fixed pin.I would never dry fire without a quality snap cap on any rimfire.
I've done it for many, many years (too embarrassing to mention how many 
) out of every centerfire rifle I've own (embarrassed to mention how many ) and never, never had a problem with a firing pin failure.
I routinely practice dry firing at home to keep the skills (those that I still have :'( ) sharp.
I'm speaking of centerfire bolt action rifles only here.
Is this another one of those infamous myths in our sport? :-[
) out of every centerfire rifle I've own (embarrassed to mention how many ) and never, never had a problem with a firing pin failure.I routinely practice dry firing at home to keep the skills (those that I still have :'( ) sharp.
I'm speaking of centerfire bolt action rifles only here.
Is this another one of those infamous myths in our sport? :-[
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.