Drawing Benches at a Registered Bench Rest Match - Input & Concerns!!!

[kapt]

Never complain to anyone, 20% don't care and the other 80% are glad you have them
.

 

[RSRains]

Never complain to anyone, 20% don't care and the other 80% are glad you have them
.

For those that do not care, is why we are in the position we are in now!!!

 

[Evan]

I’m the statistician for a 600/1000yd BR club. Complaints about the benches never seem to come from the people who volunteer their time to be match director, statistician, target scorer, etc. There’s a lot of pieces to a smooth running match that frequently require that shooters be assigned benches and relays in a particular manner. Having all your qualified pit bosses or line callers end up in the same relay wouldn’t work, as an example. Bigger matches with more experienced people to help can make it easier to accommodate full random assignments but that’s not a reality for a lot of LR matches. If we want the matches to be truly random, then the matches need to be entirely run by non-participants. Would competitors like to fork out enough money to entice professional organizers to run the matches?

Anyone who comes to the matches I’m the statistician for: I will happily talk you through exactly why I put you where I did because once I sort all the right people into relays to ensure that there is someone to call the line and run the pits for each relay, the real randomness of the bench assignments is largely gone. I just make a point of ensuring that people get cycled around the line as much as possible across the season.

 

[Gamatrudo]

Russell,
As you, and many others here know, Kim & I have helped run a significant number of the group matches in the northeast for the last 30 or so years. With almost no exception the process has always been - you get to pick a relay, competitor cards for that relay are shuffled & you blind draw from the pile - that’s your bench. Other than the nationals (as noted in the rules) the only times I know of shooters not drawing are 1) someone with a physical limitation asking for a bench that is more easily accessible or 2) an adult with a young shooter asking to be on an adjoining bench to monitor the youngster. Personally, I’m OK with that and think others should be as well. On the rare occasion this happens - remember the median age of group shooters is easily social security eligible - we should extend the courtesy on both ends of the spectrum. Fact-on the ranges that do have dedicated handicap benches we can’t give the things away!

Unregistered matches - the club / match director gets to make the rules. Maybe we just go with it and be happy they are willing to hold any sort of BR match.

This likely won’t settle well with you but rather than a “some guy said some range isn’t being fair” might I suggest it be brought to the appropriate committee. IBS group range? - reach out to the chair Paul Mitchel. An easy to talk to, extremely honorable man. I expect it will be addressed as needed.
Gary Amatrudo

 

[RSRains]

Gary,
The matches that you and Kim have helped at have been nothing but above and beyond that anyone could aspect when registering for a registered match.
In regards to Paul Mitchell we know each other pretty well and I will be discussing some concerns that I am and have gathered from posting this forum.
Gary looking forward to getting together with you and Kim again this year. Make sure you keep that coal stove burning as it has been pretty cold outside lately. Tell Kim we say hello.

 

[WIB3]

I really like drawing a chip from a bucket simple and easy. You get what you get.

 

[RSRains]

I really like drawing a chip from a bucket simple and easy. You get what you get.

Yes sir this is what we need to draw up a petition for, a rule book change.

 

[jackieschmidt]

I really like drawing a chip from a bucket simple and easy. You get what you get.

Amen.

 

[MikeRu]

I’m the statistician for a 600/1000yd BR club. Complaints about the benches never seem to come from the people who volunteer their time to be match director, statistician, target scorer, etc. There’s a lot of pieces to a smooth running match that frequently require that shooters be assigned benches and relays in a particular manner. Having all your qualified pit bosses or line callers end up in the same relay wouldn’t work, as an example. Bigger matches with more experienced people to help can make it easier to accommodate full random assignments but that’s not a reality for a lot of LR matches. If we want the matches to be truly random, then the matches need to be entirely run by non-participants. Would competitors like to fork out enough money to entice professional organizers to run the matches?

Anyone who comes to the matches I’m the statistician for: I will happily talk you through exactly why I put you where I did because once I sort all the right people into relays to ensure that there is someone to call the line and run the pits for each relay, the real randomness of the bench assignments is largely gone. I just make a point of ensuring that people get cycled around the line as much as possible across the season.

Ditto, I’m likewise the statistician for 600/1k LR BR and we start by using a RAND function in excel to randomize the list of shooters. It’s done with a TV as a second outdoor monitor, visible to everyone with interest. If your statistician is smart enough or devious to fake that, they should be in high finance!

 

[Evan]

It’s like those math word problems from middle school:

You have 24 guys in the match. 2 are capable/willing pit bosses, 2 are capable/willing line callers, and 6 are rookies who don’t know how to run a target. The rest are regulars who know what to do. One of the line callers is both the target scorer and statistician and the other is the match director. The line caller cannot be shooting in the same relay they are calling the line for. Note that the rookies will need an experienced person with them in the pits, or at least on an adjacent target to help them give reliable service to the shooter while learning the ropes. Organize a match that runs smoothly, rotates benches, and alternates LG and HG so as to not favor one over the other. Extra credit if the match doesn’t require 90 minutes at the end for the target scorer/statistician to score all the targets. There’s nothing like sitting around at 2PM, hungry, waiting on the statistician to finalize the match.

EDIT: I don’t intend for this or my previous post to sound angry or resentful. I’m just trying to portray the problem that arises every match that the team needs to solve while balancing “fairness” of the match.

 

[RSRains]

Good Afternoon All,

Please see the attached petition.

All IBS Members that are interested in signing this IBS Bench Rest Draw Petition please print your name, sign and date and return to rains310@gmail we will get the ball rolling here.
Also if anyone has any questions please feel free to contact me.

The petition will be drawn and provided at the Short Range IBS Matches.

Thanks
Russell

 

[rayporter]

your petition seems worded like they [ who ?] has been cheating all along and if fairness is desired you must sign.


i am wondering what you think the computer draw gives to whom?

 

[RSRains]

Do you feel as though you’ve been wronged or cheated out of a world record ? It’s obvious that you have strong feelings about the topic but if you want support I’d want more information.

What information would you be looking for?

 

[RSRains]

your petition seems worded like they [ who ?] has been cheating all along and if fairness is desired you must sign.


i am wondering what you think the computer draw gives to whom?

This Petition is not to point fingers at they or who. As far as a computer draw goes, all is said was (if man made it, man can alter it). The computer draw for the Nationals, and bigger shoots is probably the best way to go, especially when you rotate after every target.

 

[Chuckhunter]

Tim
i hope you got an extra degree or two to help with your heat this morning!!


in Arkansas we are sorta backwoodsy, so each shooter gets to draw his number from a tin can.

There is a certain beauty in the simplicity of many things, Old School. If in ain't broke don't fix it!

 

[RSRains]

What discipline are you referring to ?
Short Range ?
Long Range ?
How are the current rules written for that discipline and facility?
Have you witnessed a violation of the rules ?
At the facility are you referring to does a particular bench have an advantage over a different bench ?
Please describe the advantage that this particular bench holds over another.
Wind ?
Sun ?
Mirage ?
Bench composition or stability ?
Have you witnessed any world records at that particular preferred bench ?
How can you be assured that a world record is not possible at another bench or can you say that if not for being placed on bench Y over bench B a would have set a world record ?

Thanks
Jim

Jim,
If you read my first post it gives you the answers to all your questions.
This post was not sent to create a pissing match, we are talk about about drawing benches for a Registered Bench Rest Match.
Jim have you ever shot a Register Bench Rest Match?
Russell

 

[RSRains]

Tim
i hope you got an extra degree or two to help with your heat this morning!!


in Arkansas we are sorta backwoodsy, so each shooter gets to draw his number from a tin can.

Tim that tin can is an amazing tool.

Not sure if you ever shot with Dennis Tinkham or not but he was from Arkansas and we were pretty good friends

 

[rayporter]

i did shoot with Dennis.

 

[RSRains]

In your first post you mention concerned shooters and post a copy of the IBS rules, you didn’t state short range or long range or answer all my questions.

This is from the IBS Rule Book so take a look at Short and Long Range in the rule book.

Again I am not here to point fingers at any places or anyone like you are you continue to ask for, those questions have nothing to do with this post.

Draw your chip from a can and good luck at your next match.

 

[newbieshooter]

This is from the IBS Rule Book so take a look at Short and Long Range in the rule book.

Again I am not here to point fingers at any places or anyone like you are you continue to ask for, those questions have nothing to do with this post.

Draw your chip from a can and good luck at your next match.

The IBS LR rules are written differently:

Relay and Bench Assignments. The over-arching tenet is relay and bench assignment must
be done fairly so as to not discriminately advantage or disadvantage any shooter, regardless of
their experience or seniority in the sport. Designation of shooting positions and relays shall be
determined by individual Clubs, per below rules.

Clubs conducting Registered Tournaments do not routinely have the privilege of permitting
competitors to select their relay or bench assignment. Three exceptions are allowed. First, an
exception may be allowed to accommodate legitimate requirements a shooter might have such as
a scheduled doctor’s appointment that day, as an example. Second, physical handicap may be
accommodated. Third, Clubs have the option of assigning all non-IBS shooters to the same
relay(s). Exceptions are considered and can be granted by the Host Club Match Director or
Statistician.

Computer-Based Program. One method uses a computer-based program to randomly
assign shooters to relays and benches. Typically, this random generator is used to determine
relay and bench assignment for each individual Match by class.

Drawing. A second method is conducting a drawing for benches. An example is each
shooter pulls from a container colored and numbered chips that indicate relay and bench
assignment. Another example is each shooter selecting one face-down playing card. One of the
Referees or the Statistician shall be present to see the drawing is fairly conducted and to
represent registered shooters not present when called upon to draw. Clubs have the option of
having but one drawing and requiring each competitor to shoot from the same bench for all
matches in a class at all distances or they may allow two drawings - one for matches at the first
distance and one for the matches at the second distance. Clubs may also draw for each Match,
each class.

Shooters in the 600 Yard discipline commonly share wind flags. With the permission of
the Range Officer or Statistician, a competitor may identify up to three other competitors to share
bench assignment at the time of bench drawing. He/she must declare the other individuals prior
to any of the individuals drawing for benches. The Host Club will accommodate the request up
to available benches on currently open relays. This option is not open to the 1000 Yard
discipline.

....etc.