• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Does so much jump make sense?

I never jumped 105 hybrids more than 20 thau but obviously I was wrong:


I am going to test the 0.045 jump next week. Have you jumped the 105s so much?
Personally, I’ve done extensive testing with the 105g hybrid bullets from jam through jam minus 0.080” (which amounts to about a 0.053” jump. I have yet to find a consistent bullet jump that outperforms the “jam minus 6, to jam minus 12 thou” range.
 
I have used these articles to start searching for seating depths with both 105 hybrids and the 147 ELD-M. I will say that this is very accurate information and it saved me a lot of time and components during initial load development. I shoot PRS, so my loadings might differ from F-class and benchrest, but my dasher and a 105 hybrid sitting~ .045 off shoots REALLY good and has for several hundred rounds. I've had no reason to change my seating depth.
 
Can anyone explain why jump distances seem to be very close between calibers and different cartridges? The 5 to 15 off jam and 30 to 40 off jam are common from 6mm br to much larger cases with tangent or hybrid bullet designs. Flame away if you feel the need or we can start a useful conversation. I understand nothing is absolute in this. Keep it general..... please.
 
Can anyone explain why jump distances seem to be very close between calibers and different cartridges? The 5 to 15 off jam and 30 to 40 off jam are common from 6mm br to much larger cases with tangent or hybrid bullet designs. Flame away if you feel the need or we can start a useful conversation. I understand nothing is absolute in this. Keep it general..... please.
I've never seen a convincing reason - just lots of handwaving and speculation. If you figure it out PLEASE let us know. I don't think there's anyone who fully understands why seating depth changes of .004 can make a difference, let alone why certain settings are fairly (but not totally) reliable.
 
I never jumped 105 hybrids more than 20 thau but obviously I was wrong:


I am going to test the 0.045 jump next week. Have you jumped the 105s so much?
I think you might want to read the article in more detail before setting up a -.045" seating depth test. My understanding from the article is that they were explaining why NOT to use -.045" as a seating depth, suggesting that -.045" is a seating depth that falls in a region where even small amounts of land erosion can quickly cause a significant increase in vertical dispersion.

The initial output of the seating depth test with 105s looked like this:

105 Seating Depth.png


They followed up with the next figure, using it to illustrate their point (yellow arrows) regarding how the use of relatively long jumps can be associated with very forgiving (wide) seating depth windows where vertical dispersion has been minimized. To my eye, the portion of the graph to which I added the red box should be just as good, possibly even better. Regardless, somewhere between -.060" and -.080" is probably the seating depth window you probably want to be testing, not -.045".

105 Seating Depth %22Optimum%22.png


An additional bar graph of vertical dispersion versus bullet jump was used to illustrate the same principle. Notice that the region between -.040" and -.050" has the most vertical of the entire test, meaning that it is probably not a good choice for seating depth.

105 Vertical vs Jump.png


The whole point of this exercise was to find a very forgiving (i.e. wide) seating depth region that produced good precision, as opposed to a relatively narrow seating depth increment that produced the best precision. Their reasoning was that a very narrow seating depth optimum that produced the very best precision might also be much more sensitive to changes such as land erosion, etc., and therefore not very forgiving. I would make the argument that we would ideally like to have both; i.e. a nice wide optimal seating depth window that also produced very good precision.

Part of what that would entail involves the relative rates of land erosion for various cartridges. For example, if someone identifies an optimal seating depth window that is at least two to three x .003" increments wide, how many rounds would a given setup take to shoot erode the lands sufficiently to warrant re-visiting seating depth? For something like a .223 Rem or .308 Win where you might observe something like ~.010" land erosion per 1000 rounds, such a seating depth optimal window might provide as much as 600-900 fired rounds before land erosion would necessitate additional seating depth testing. A rifle setup that exhibited three or four times greater land erosion would require either a much wider seating depth optimal window, or much more frequent seating depth optimization. So basically it's all relative.
 
Last edited:
I once bought and owned a Tikka 595 in 22 250. The lands started so far ahead of the throat that the closest I could get to the lands with 55g bullets was about 20 thou off without the bullet falling out of the case.
I played with the jump distance until I found its sweet spot at @ 105 off.
Other than that it was a nice rifle but I finally sold it.
 
Thats what I look for when I reload, a bunch of multicolored lines posted by some one I don't know, generated by a computer. The target is the only thing that matters, why not consult it???
 
Most barrels will have at least a few places they will shoot. Usually there will be 2 windows in the lands, say .005-.010 in and then another one around .020 in. Same goes for jump, theres usually a very close one around .005 to .010 then again around .020-.030 then again around .050 to .070 and so on. Those spots are not written in stone and not all barrel will have all of them, but they do show up pretty often. The different windows will act different. What I see is if a barrel likes that deep jam, the window is very wide and forgiving with excellent accuracy. If not, then the shorter jam and shorter jump will usually give peak accuracy but the windows are pretty small. Those bigger jumps do not seen to shoot quite as small but are wider. Again, not in stone but I have seen it play out this way quite a bit.
 
I never jumped 105 hybrids more than 20 thau but obviously I was wrong:


I am going to test the 0.045 jump next week. Have you jumped the 105s so much?
Here is the load development info for the BERGER HYBRID BULLETS.
A general rule of thumb with the Berger Elite Hunter and Hybrid Target bullets is to start your bullet seating depth testing at .015" off the lands. Then you work back into the cartridge case in .015" increments (.015",.030", .045", .060"). When you find a bullet seating depth that shows promise, you can test .005" to either side of that CBTO if you wish to see if accuracy can be improved. All bullet seating depth testing is done using the starting powder charge!

The testing you show is what THEIR RIFLE LIKES. You have to test to see what YOUR RIFLE LIKES!! No two are alike !
 
@Alex Wheeler Very insightful remark. I personally never seated bullets so far away from the lands to come across the third window. I usually go with .005 or .0015-.0020 window.
 
Nothing personal, but for a bench rest /single feed application, all that seating over .060 jump tells me is that your freebore is wrong, or you need to change powders or bullets for a better fill ratio. Not to mention being paranoid about donuts all the time.
 
Last edited:
I can't load a cartridge near the lands of my Savage in 6.5 Creedmoor with a Hornady 140 gr ELD-M and fit in the magazine. I ended up jumping .120 and can shoot 1" groups with a couple different powders at that length. I can just get a 130 gr ELD-M to .020 of the lands and still fit the mag and the groups are pretty good out to .040 off the lands.
 
Last edited:

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
166,227
Messages
2,213,866
Members
79,448
Latest member
tornado-technologies
Back
Top