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Does annealing change over time?

I would like to anneal cases now that will be sized and loaded at a later date. Say 3 or 4 months from now. Would the brass have a different composite by then? I can anneal, size, trim and load now. Seems like from previous threads tho if all of these steps are taken within a week or two neck tension would be more uniform. I have the time now, but I question every step in regards to time.
I never really knew there could be so many questions/threads in regards to one process, annealing to get uniform neck tension. I pulled bullets that I had loaded years ago before i started annealing and broke my cap on my rcbs kinetic bullet puller pulling bullets that seemed to almost have a chemical bonding thing going on. ( 243 win 55 nosler ball tips).
 
Sort answer. No.

I have some brass thats 70years old and its just as soft as the new stuff. If both are untouched.
Brass is work hardened. Time does not affect it.
 
Sort answer. No.

I have some brass thats 70years old and its just as soft as the new stuff. If both are untouched.
Brass is work hardened. Time does not affect it.

I had a black powder 45/70 case that was probably made before 1900. The brass was still soft.
 
Sort answer. No.

I have some brass thats 70years old and its just as soft as the new stuff. If both are untouched.
Brass is work hardened. Time does not affect it.
Norma, respectfully, disagrees > http://www.norma.cc/en/Products/Components/Cases/
along with thousands of reloaders who reload decades old brass and experience cracked necks. For competition, I would keep the time frame that it is loaded to a minimum.
 
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The article doesn't say it gets harder. I think what happens is after you size and seat a bullet it keeps getting smaller and puts tension on. The spring back thing. Also chemical reactions and bonding takes place. Matt
 

I disagree with Norma. 70/30 brass does not age or soften with time. The brass can only get softer by the grain size increasing, this only happens at elevated temp. There is no metallurgical mechanism for the grain size to increase at room temp. Never heard of self strain relieving in brass at low temp (I will look into strain relief at low temp). It only gets softer from annealing at temperatures above 750F. Cartridges loaded from WWI have not lost grip on a bullet.

I struggled and bent from side to side to pull the bullet out of my 100 YO 45/70 case.

I know it isn't brass but copper has very similar properties as 70/30 brass as far as work hardening and annealing. Many countries have chosen copper to store nuclear waste since the coppers properties won't change for at least 100,000 years. It's probably annealed copper. If anyone has info to the contrary I would like to see it from some reliable metallurgical research.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Data from sellers of copper and brass sheet, plate and wire.

Source: http://www.totalmateria.com/Article25.htm

Stress Relieving (not annealing)

Stress relieving is aimed to reduce or eliminate residual stress, thereby reducing the likelihood that the part will fail by cracking or corrosion fatigue in service. Parts are stress-relieved at temperatures below the normal annealing range that do not cause recrystallization and consequent softening of the metal.

Residual stresses contribute to this type of failure, which is frequently seen in brasses containing 15% zinc or more. Even higher-copper alloys such as aluminum bronzes and silicon bronzes may crack under critical combinations of stress and specific corroding, and all copper alloys are susceptible to more rapid corrosion attack when in the stressed condition.

Stressed phosphor bronzes and copper nickels have comparatively slight tendencies toward stress-corrosion cracking; these alloys are more susceptible to fire cracking, which is cracking caused when stressed metal is heated too rapidly to the annealing temperature. Slow heating provides a measure of stress relief and minimizes non-uniform temperature distributions, which lead to thermal stress.

Using a high stress-relieving temperature for a short time is generally considered best for keeping processing time and cost to a practical minimum, even though there is usually some sacrifice in mechanical properties. Using a lower temperature for a longer time will provide complete stress relief with no decrease in mechanical properties. Actually, the hardness and strength of severely cold worked alloys will increase slightly when low stress-relieving temperatures are used.


SOURCE: http://www.lfa-wire.com/70-30-brass-wire_c26000.htm

PHYSICAL PROPERTIES
C26000, 70/30 BRASS
Annealing Temperature
800-1400°F
425-750°C

Stress Relief Temperature
(1 hr)
500°F
260°C
 
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I would like to anneal cases now that will be sized and loaded at a later date. Say 3 or 4 months from now. Would the brass have a different composite by then? I can anneal, size, trim and load now. Seems like from previous threads tho if all of these steps are taken within a week or two neck tension would be more uniform. I have the time now, but I question every step in regards to time.
I never really knew there could be so many questions/threads in regards to one process, annealing to get uniform neck tension. I pulled bullets that I had loaded years ago before i started annealing and broke my cap on my rcbs kinetic bullet puller pulling bullets that seemed to almost have a chemical bonding thing going on. ( 243 win 55 nosler ball tips).
Bullets do bond I can't say if chemical or not. Larry
 
The article doesn't say it gets harder. I think what happens is after you size and seat a bullet it keeps getting smaller and puts tension on. The spring back thing. Also chemical reactions and bonding takes place. Matt
That's what I'm thinking, loaded brass has constant tension on the neck....couple that with slightly dissimilar metals, powder deteriorating with age, contaminants in the environment and a flaw in the grain structure in the neck....you'll get cracked necks.
 
The phenomenon is ONLY stress corrosion cracking. To stop it either you remove the stress or stop the corrosion. Heat treating the metal can raise the required stress for it to start but there isn't much data for brass. But there is plenty of data that indicates that annealing WITH LEAVING THE STAIN virtually stops the cracking.
 
Studies conducted at Frankfort Arsenal by H. Gisser, Chemist, Ordinance Lab found that " stress corrosion cracking of brass cartridge cases is intimately associated with the so-called "powder volatiles"-ammonia and oxides of nitrogen, both of which are decomposition products of smokeless powder." Abstract from ASTM Int'l -Paper STP-64-EB.
I have seen this numerous times through the years at hunting camp when guy's shoot the old red/green boxed Remington, red/yellow boxed Winchester, and blue/red boxed Peters factory ammo have an unusually high incidence of cracked necks upon firing.
 
Im pretty sure if you left brass sitting unloaded for 100yrs nothing would change. You put 2 dissimilar metals together i.e. copper bullets in brass cases then throw in the powder offgassing ammonia and the necks corrode together leading to extreme neck tension and broken necks upon firing. I dont think its the brass getting harder i think the bullet has stuck. All you gotta do is pull a bullet out of a case thats been loaded for many years. If you use a collet type puller or something like the pma puller you can see this. A hammer type wont let you see except for having to about beat the head off of it getting the bullet to turn loose. Then when you examine that bullet youll see a dark colored corrosion where it was in contact with the brass. This is just my findings from pulling bullets out of old ppc cases. Some are stuck so good itll break the neck smooth off
 
OP -My apologies for carrying the subject into the extreme. To help answer your question -see the Daily Bulletin of Feb.13, 2010
 
Norma, respectfully, disagrees > http://www.norma.cc/en/Products/Components/Cases/
along with thousands of reloaders who reload decades old brass and experience cracked necks. For competition, I would keep the time frame that it is loaded to a minimum.
My ASM book will prove both of them wrong, this is 100% wrong, right from Norma too "The case neck is annealed to become softer. This prevents gas leaks and enables the case to hold the bullet firmly for at least 10 years without cracking as a result of aging material.". Norma obviously had someone who wrote that who has a BA degree.

I posted a while back about stress corrosion cracking (season cracking) and about galvanic corrosion can occur with 2 dissimilar metals. You need 3 things for it to occur, an electrolyte, 2 different metals and electricity, but the exchange of electrons from the least noble metal will create it's own electricity. Cracked necks are 99.99% of the time from the de-zincification of brass, no amount of annealing will fix them.

To the OP, you can anneal your case today and 1,000 years from now the brass will be the same grain structure as it was the day it was annealed, assuming you control it's environment.
 
...... snip......... Norma obviously had someone who wrote that who has a BA degree............... snip........
Norma obviously had someone who wrote that who has a BS degree. There, I fixed your typo.

I wouldn't say Norma is clueless because I'm sure they aren't, as a company anyway; however, the person who wrote that blurb certainly is clueless. A second hint is the "twice as hard" statement. When you use an arbitrary measurement, which is the case with most hardness scales, saying "twice as hard" is about as informative as saying "twice as pretty" when it comes to picking up trashy women in beer bars.
 
My ASM book will prove both of them wrong, this is 100% wrong, right from Norma too "The case neck is annealed to become softer. This prevents gas leaks and enables the case to hold the bullet firmly for at least 10 years without cracking as a result of aging material.". Norma obviously had someone who wrote that who has a BA degree.

I posted a while back about stress corrosion cracking (season cracking) and about galvanic corrosion can occur with 2 dissimilar metals. You need 3 things for it to occur, an electrolyte, 2 different metals and electricity, but the exchange of electrons from the least noble metal will create it's own electricity. Cracked necks are 99.99% of the time from the de-zincification of brass, no amount of annealing will fix them.

To the OP, you can anneal your case today and 1,000 years from now the brass will be the same grain structure as it was the day it was annealed, assuming you control it's environment.

I posted the very same question some time ago that I had some of the green and white remington270 150 grain round nose never fired shells. I came across several boxes of these and when fired they shot all over the place and so I thought I would just shoot a few at a time and save the cases. Well they started to split necks and a fellow shooter suggested I call remengton and give the code on the end flap which I did and they said not to fire anymore of them as they were made around 1940's and should not be fired!! So for what ever the reason chemical reaction or corrosion age hardening I don't know but I have several boxes of them mostly now just cases That I would like to anneal and use but I don't want to waste my time if it isn't worth it. Just my experience with older loaded shells! I'm not a metallurgist just saying what was
my experience, now granted these were 50 year old factory shells! I would be glad to provide the end flap code and you or anyone else cane call Remington and ask them why they say not to shoot any of them! Ron
 
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For whatever this is worth, Remington and Federal both state in their FAQ's "loaded ammunition has a 10 year shelf life on loaded ammunition" -if stored properly. As for Lapua "at least 5 years"
 
OP -My apologies for carrying the subject into the extreme. To help answer your question -see the Daily Bulletin of Feb.13, 2010
I liked LHSmith post because the description in the Daily Bulletin was exactly i.e. 100% of what I personally have experienced.
 

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