Does adjusting runout affect neck tension

[mikecr]

I didn't mean to imply 'improvements', only relieving of an issue otherwise(which I believe is often taken as improvement).
That issue is chambered tensions caused by crooked ammo.

Next group you're laying down, rest a thumb against the action tang for one of the shots. Often this is enough to cause a detriment. That's a tension, and in particular it's an inconsistent tension. Well this chambered banana presses differently than the next chambered banana, and all the sudden bigger clearances are your friend, and then high runout(seemingly in itself) matters not. Of course not..
Back to better performance.
But, not better performance than tight clearances -using truly straight ammo.
This is not a test I've seen run. It's really no more than my logic about what's going on.

My last completed build was an experiment touching on this area. An improved wildcat with a 'fitted chamber', on turned necks. No more than 1thou total clearance, anywhere. Same +.0005 throat as you mention. With this, I do not size the case bodies or necks -ever(and >30reload cycles so far). I will never have to, and so I will never have to trim, anneal, replace cases. My H20 capacities as matched will forever hold, along with my neck tension, and runout so low I cannot measure it even after polishing the cases. The developed load is right at SAAMI max per QL.
I'm certain the gun shoots as well as possible, and that nobody could reasonably think they could do better with it. I just couldn't picture it shooting better.

All of this was what I set out to explore, and I've learned a lot.
What I have not done yet, is engage in efforts needed to produce & test crooked ammo in this chamber, just to see if results would go to hell.
My gut tells me they would. That there is a reason, beyond what I'm seeing, that everyone is so sure FL sizing, and rat turds in violin cases, leads to better results(without a single logical explanation for this). And, I should add, from the same people who have extended this to declare in a broad sense that FL sizing as required...
I believe there are reasons, prices, and qualifiers to everything.

 

[markgrabowski]

I didn't mean to imply 'improvements', only relieving of an issue otherwise(which I believe is often taken as improvement).
That issue is chambered tensions caused by crooked ammo.

Next group you're laying down, rest a thumb against the action tang for one of the shots. Often this is enough to cause a detriment. That's a tension, and in particular it's an inconsistent tension. Well this chambered banana presses differently than the next chambered banana, and all the sudden bigger clearances are your friend, and then high runout(seemingly in itself) matters not. Of course not..
Back to better performance.
But, not better performance than tight clearances -using truly straight ammo.
This is not a test I've seen run. It's really no more than my logic about what's going on.

My last completed build was an experiment touching on this area. An improved wildcat with a 'fitted chamber', on turned necks. No more than 1thou total clearance, anywhere. Same +.0005 throat as you mention. With this, I do not size the case bodies or necks -ever(and >30reload cycles so far). I will never have to, and so I will never have to trim, anneal, replace cases. My H20 capacities as matched will forever hold, along with my neck tension, and runout so low I cannot measure it even after polishing the cases. The developed load is right at SAAMI max per QL.
I'm certain the gun shoots as well as possible, and that nobody could reasonably think they could do better with it. I just couldn't picture it shooting better.

All of this was what I set out to explore, and I've learned a lot.
What I have not done yet, is engage in efforts needed to produce & test crooked ammo in this chamber, just to see if results would go to hell.
My gut tells me they would. That there is a reason, beyond what I'm seeing, that everyone is so sure FL sizing, and rat turds in violin cases, leads to better results(without a single logical explanation for this). And, I should add, from the same people who have extended this to declare in a broad sense that FL sizing as required...
I believe there are reasons, prices, and qualifiers to everything.

Have you ever run into chambering difficulties with some pieces of brass? How many shots can you take before needing to clean the chamber or throat?

 

['Freak]

The only “real” bench rest rifle I’ve ever laid hands on, twenty something years ago, loaded for and then fired all of five rounds, was an owner/builder rifle done same as “mikecr” describes. Knock out spent primer, clean pocket, brush neck inside, wipe outsides, prime, throw charge, seat bullet in an owner/builder made straight line die (like a Wilson) on an arbor press, and it’s ready to shoot once again, then repeat. Hanging in his shop was a framed target with five rounds going into .00n” that he’d fired from 100 yards using that rifle.

 

[dkhunt14]

Can you expand on this Mike? I'm curious just where these loose clearances would be helping us achieve improvements in accuracy?

With all the talk about seating into/off by 0.001" increments, necks turned to wall thickness of +/- 0.0001", neck clearances sometimes requiring lube to get loaded rounds into chambers for firing (kidding on this one), I have to wonder just where looser clearances are of advantage?

My own recent experience with a wildcat 7mm is that a tight throat - spec'd to just 0.0005" over bullet diameter - helps greatly when there's only about 0.080" of neck gripping the bullet and they're seated LONG yet not touching lands so that the bullet's bearing surface ends just before where the neck begins when seated.

I believe in clearance. If a bullet has .003 runout and the case is sized small the case can move to help align in the bore. Especially if the bullets are close to or in the lands. It does,so without putting pressure on one side of the bullet. An example is some of the best 1000 yard 10 shot groups I have seen, are with Fireforming rounds with the bullet in the lands. The cases are smaller then and allows the bullet to align with the bore. I have had guns that always shot smaller when Fireforming.

I don't like when bullets are almost out the case when seated. I don't get the best accuracy that way. A lot of my guns like a lot of tension on the bullet and that takes neck length to get the grip. I have seen a few shoot good that way but seems mine want more grip. The WSM seems to like as much as you can get. Now I am talking 1000 yard 10 shot BR groups. Even my Dasher seems to like a bit of tension. Matt

 

[rardoin]

You can always solder the bullets in with a propane torch.

Silver solder...but then there is MAPP gas...reloaders do not know of MAPP gas...and then I use MAPP gas to cook my donuts... and then..

 

[mikecr]

Freak, I could just about do the same as the guy you describe, except I went with 35deg shoulders.
I did this to reach a target capacity per QL, and the chamber/finished barrels & components so far exactly matched QL.
Anyway, given 35deg shoulders I did need to bump shoulders at reload #9, and have ever since with a custom bump die. Zero body or neck sizing though. Next chamber will be 45deg shoulders in an effort to remove all sizing.
Your example shooter demonstrates the possibility, that it works, but I don't know how many reloads his system was providing.

markgrabowski, my cases remain identical to first fireformed, with the 1thou(after springback) bumping I do.
Given fitted necks, at 13thou thickness, I get zero neck sooting. That is for the most part instant sealing. My ES is usually ~6-8fps, as measured across 20' screen spacing with an Oehler. Not bad with 47.4gr of relatively slow IMR4350.
As far as cleaning, I was taught to put away guns cleaner than I pulled them. After every use I clean the bore to white metal as seen with a borescope, and dry pre-foul with WS2 before it goes back in the safe. But my cleaning routine is pretty normal (Speedy's recommended). I use Border barrels, and combined with WS2 coated bullets, I haven't fouled one out yet.

dkhunt14, the notion of better aligning with clearances kind of falls apart when you consider that tighter clearances are tighter aligning(of crooked or straight ammo). That is, unless the chamber was out of line with the throat/bore. But this situation is hard to imagine as common among BR guns(would immediately see it with a borescope). And now that many shooters have gone to actual full seating testing, as recommended by Berger, they're finding that ITL relationships are not for sure better, as assumed for so long. As predictable, ITL seating is better more often for underbores liking higher starting pressures. That's pressure timing, & not alignment coming into play. Anyway, for every gun demonstrating better performance while OTL, better alignment through greater clearances becomes less likely in reasoning.
As far as fire-forming rounds shooting so well, I prefer your idea about case expansion contributing to this. Again, pressure timing, and nothing consistent for the mob. It's not viable, as once a case is fired it is forever different,, you can't fire-form them every time. So this isn't what led to FL sizing as common. Does it support better alignment as a cause? I'm thinking new cases, which are by manufacture -crooked as hell, in a sloppy chamber, are combining nothing toward better alignment.
It's my contention that such ammo would shoot worse in a tight chamber, not because of misalignment, but because of chambered tensions in forcing of better alignment.
Does it pass the test of reasoning?