Do I buy the "new" lapua 6mmBR brass - or go with Norma

[1972]

I know this topic has been up and down the mountain a number of times in the past, but I wanted to check on where things are at this time.

Long story short I just got a new Savage LRPV in 6mmBR Norma and I’m going to need brass for it.

I imagine the fact that Lapua decided to re-invent the wheel and changed the specs on their 6mmBR brass is old news to everyone, so I’ll not open that can of worms again.

So it seems that the only choices for brass are either the “new” lapua 6mmBR brass, which nobody seems to be very happy with, or Norma brass. The Norma brass is considerably more costly, but given what I’m hearing about the lapua brass it may be worth the extra coin to go with Norma.

Just thought I’d throw this out there to see what those with more knowledge and experience than I have thought about it.

I appreciate your comments and advice.

 

[queen_stick]

"...the “new” lapua 6mmBR brass, which nobody seems to be very happy with..."

I think you've misinterpreted why people are 'complaining' about the new brass. It's not that the brass is 'bad.' The general complaint about the 'new' brass is that the neck walls are thinner. Since a lot of people prefer to run no-turn necks, the 'new' brass is now undersized for the tight-necked no-turn chambers. I have a .272 no-turn neck right now, which was ideal for a no-turn until the new brass came out with thinner necks. People now prefer to use a ".270ish" chamber for a tight no-turn chamber. That's the reason for the complaint, and the argued effect of the change is that the new brass will now be worked more in sizing and firing, which can result in reduced brass life.

All in all, it's difficult to match the quality of Lapua brass, and that hasn't changed with the new lot.

Walt

Edit *** I have not tried the Norma brass, so I can't comment on it. I'm sure it's some quality stuff. (I would hope so!)

 

[cmillard]

go with lapua!!! I have some norma brass--expensive--and the brass does not last as long as lapua. i have lapua brass that has almost 2x the number of firings vs norma and does not need to be annealed. the necks on the norma stiffen up much faster than lapua. but, the primer pockets, where it counts, is in the same condition as lapua. my load, 30.0 varget, wolf srm, 107 sierra, .020 itl.

 

[KevinThomas]

1972,

A bit of clarification here, if I may. Norma's necks should be virtually identical to our own, and we didn't "change" the specs of this brass. We went back to running it within the already existing specs for the 6mm BR, as opposed to letting it run on the high side of the specs. The problem was, invariably, when you run on one side of the scale, some will fall outside that spec. In our case, when one of the cases went over the top end limit, it wouldn't gage properly in the CIP neck gage. As a CIP member, we're legally bound and obligated to remain within the specs for any given case or cartridge. Norma is a fellow member of CIP, and their brass will fall somewhere within the exact same specs that we adhere to. No exceptions, no allowances.

I hope this helps clarify the situation, but as always, I'll be happy to address any other questions or concerns you may have. Never a problem.

 

[RonAKA]

For those that have tried the Norma brass, what do the loaded round neck OD's measure out as? I guess what I am getting at, is whether or not they solve the issue for those with the 0.272" "no turn" necks? To do that you would need loaded rounds coming in at 0.2690-0.2695".

 

[1972]

Does anybody have any Norma brass that they can measure? What is the wall thickness in the neck?

 

[dantiff2]

+ 1 on the Lapua brass !! Same GREAT brass but now even better in my .270 neck BR... ;D


P.S. Watch out for the little burr in the flash hole on every piece !! Annoying but a small price to pay for brass of that quality.

Dan

 

[areaone]

My loaded rounds with Lapua is .2675. With the NORMA brass .2685. I am using a 70 gr sierra

 

[artbosco]

So it seems that the only choices for brass are either the “new” lapua 6mmBR brass, which nobody seems to be very happy with, or Norma brass. The Norma brass is considerably more costly, but given what I’m hearing about the lapua brass it may be worth the extra coin to go with Norma.

I use Lapua 6mmBR brass [necked up] in my 30BR exclusively, and have found nothing to be concerned with.

I did try some of the new Norma 6PPC brass in my B.A.T. chambered 6PPC and had trouble with ejection about every fourth piece. I threw it away.

I'm sticking with my old stalwart ... Lapua. I can't afford to be fooling with poorly performing brass in the heat of timed competition.

 

[fdshuster]

Been using the blue box Lapua to fireform 6BRX for my .270" chamber neck and they are fine. When I run out of the older Lapua for my .272" necks if I think the thinner necks are a problem, I'll have my reamer reground to a .270" neck. I did a comparison test a few years ago with Norma vs Lapua. 20 cases of each, both loaded identically, same rifle/chamber, etc. After 6 reloads I was getting hard bolt lift and the primer pockets opened up with the Norma, while the Lapua continued problem free. I still have those same 20 Lapua cases, with 37 loadings, never annealed and they are still perfectly usable. In fact they sit in a loaded box of 20, ready to go. Not slamming Norma, just my experience with a small sampeling of 20.

 

[fl3gun]

For those that have tried the Norma brass, what do the loaded round neck OD's measure out as? I guess what I am getting at, is whether or not they solve the issue for those with the 0.272" "no turn" necks? To do that you would need loaded rounds coming in at 0.2690-0.2695".

I use Norma Brass in my 6br match rifle, the loaded rounds with Berger 105's measure 0.2695

 

[RonAKA]

A bit of clarification here, if I may. Norma's necks should be virtually identical to our own, and we didn't "change" the specs of this brass. We went back to running it within the already existing specs for the 6mm BR, as opposed to letting it run on the high side of the specs. The problem was, invariably, when you run on one side of the scale, some will fall outside that spec. In our case, when one of the cases went over the top end limit, it wouldn't gage properly in the CIP neck gage. As a CIP member, we're legally bound and obligated to remain within the specs for any given case or cartridge. Norma is a fellow member of CIP, and their brass will fall somewhere within the exact same specs that we adhere to. No exceptions, no allowances.

Kevin, thank you for the explanation. I gather the short story is that Lapua was targeting the upper end of the size range and some cases exceeded the maximum CIP neck diameter specification. So, I presume Lapua has changed the forming die size or their process now to produce brass that will now fall inside specifications, and as a result on average are smaller?

As a technical person, cartridge drawings always bother me, as any machinist knows (and engineer should know) you can't make a part with a single dimension. It has to have tolerances. So I'm curious. Below are two cartridge drawings for the 6BR. Once from the 6BR site (right), and I'm not sure of the origin, and the other from Norma (left). The neck dimensions differ slightly and also suggest a slight taper. Is one SAAMI and the other CIP? Or, why do they differ? Are these the maximum dimensions, and also what are the tolerances. For example on the 6BR graphic it shows 0.2705 right at the end of the neck. Is that really 0.2705 +0.0000 -0.00? ?.

I'm just wondering what it takes for neck OD to put a loaded round out of specification, and what normal dimensional tolerances would be. Your insight would be much appreciated so I could understand this detail better.

 

[Larryh128]

Not even close ++++ Lapua. Now how about some good 300 WSM?

 

[22XC Guy]

The left drawing is identical to specs on Norma website. The right drawing maybe is the 6mm BR Remington cartridge. "Norma standardized their set of chambering specifications"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6mm_BR

http://www.6mmbr.com/6mmbr.html#23414

Maybe this helps.

Steve

 

[RonAKA]

I think I have sorted out the dimensional difference between the two drawings. Suspect it is a metric conversion and round off issue. If you take the Norma drawing on the left, and look at the neck dimension closest to the neck, it is 6.90 mm, which is a rather even number suggesting it may be the standard. Converted to inches this is 0.271653". Rounded off to three digits as it is in the same drawing this works out to be 0.272". However rounded off to 4 digits as the right drawing is, then it becomes 0.2717, which it is.

Same with the very front of the neck; 6.87mm = 0.2704719 = 0.270 = 0.2705 depending where you round to.

Still interested in Lapua's comment on what the CIP specification is? Nominal, plus max min tolerance.

 

[GermanS1]

Ron, you can find the CIP standards for the 6BR at http://www.poliisi.fi/intermin/images.nsf/files/AE55118F4B9B6506C2256FBE0032C6DE/$file/TABIcal.pdf

CIP and SAAMI don't specify manufacturing tolerances, they both specify a maximum cartridge dimension and a minimum chamber dimension. The goal of both organizations with respect to these dimensions is to ensure chamber/ammunition compatibility.

 

[RonAKA]

Thanks German, that was exactly the information I was looking for. It fills in a lot of blanks.

 

[jonbearman]

I really dont know what the big deal is with the .001 difference in neck size will really do other than neck tension will be varied slightly and overall loaded size dimension being slightly smaller.But to worry about .0005 tenths is really not that big a deal.If you have a no-turn neck,then you may have to buy brass more often like when the barrel burns out.My no-turn has not seen any accuracy change and reloading the stuff,I havent ruined one case in many reloadings.I think we are splitting hairs here.If it does affect your accuracy then get the barrel set back and rechambered to a smaller number.

 

[KevinThomas]

Ron,

Sorry about the delay here, but on the road this week; haven't had too much time for the forums. Looks like German got you taken care of there, so many thanks to him for that.

Yes, your earlier post was spot on. Running things at the top end of tolerances before, and this lead to some crossing the line, ever so slightly. It was enough, hoever, that they didn't pass the CIP gaging. This lead to the change, and all the threads related to this . . . oh, so many threads.

 

[RonAKA]

Thanks Kevin. I now fully understand the situation. The only down side is that I have now gone from thinking that my old cardboard box 6BR was perfect in neck size to thinking I may have a few in the batch that are actually too large. That was the reason I started the thread on the symptoms of too tight a neck. I guess I have some measuring to do.