DLSR Digiscoping, with or without lens

[SteveOak]

I am looking at digiscoping accessories on the Kowas site and B&H Camera. There seems to be two methods of attachment. One the adaptor mates to the body as a lens would and then another adaptor mates to that and goes over the spotting scope eye piece.

There is another method on the Kowa website where there is an adaptor that screws into the end of the DSLR lens.



How does that work? Does the DLSR lens increase the image size? Any downside?

Kowa makes an adaptor for the Nikon F mount so I am good there. I would like to understand the differances before I buy adaptors.

Thanks!

 

[hoz53]

I am looking at digiscoping accessories on the Kowas site and B&H Camera. There seems to be two methods of attachment. One the adaptor mates to the body as a lens would and then another adaptor mates to that and goes over the spotting scope eye piece.

There is another on the Kowa website where there is anadaptor that screws into the end of the DSLR lens.

View attachment 1670169

How does that work? Does the DLSR lens increase the image size? Any downside?

Kowa makes an adaptor for the Nikon F mount so I am good there. I would like to understand the differance before I buy adaptors.

Thanks!

i wish some people would answer this as I have the same questions you do. main thing i am wondering is if i could see marks on the plates at 1K better with my budget Kowa? looks to me like the mounts all do the same thing. i may have to buy one to find this out. i did post another thread on digiscoping if your interested.

 

[6BRA]

Optical zoom from the camera or phone combined with lower power on the spotting scope will yield the better experience. Even a 5x optical on some phones now with 30x spotter yields 150x. This is far clearer than a kowa tsn 883 with 1.6 multiplier. This is 99x. 30x allows more light imo. If there is an adaptor that allows the dslr with lens to be mounted...this is the way to go. IF GOPRO HAD AN OPTICAL ZOOM it would win hands down due to weight. I think this is where you will run into issue with the dslr. The go pro is perfect size for digiscoping. It needs a optical zoom to be perfect plus it creates its own wifi. Attaching the dslr weight concerns me. Balance stability.
Just some comments from what I have seen.

 

[Fred Bohl]

Steve it would be very helpful if you would tell us what you intend to do with the image files.

However, to try to be helpful let’s start with the basic concepts.

Eyepiece Projection - using the spotter with its lens and the camera without a lens the adapter locates the camera image sensor at the eye point/eye relief position of the spotter lens.

Digiscoping - using the lenses of both the spotter and camera the adapters locate the camera image sensor at the back focus of the camera lens. Note that this normally requires the internal focal plane of camera lens to be at the eye point/eye relief position of the spotter lens which limits camera lens selection or ability to achieve focus.

Books have been written about both techniques but the question of which is preferable is dependent on how the images obtained are intended to be used.

I’m going to make some popcorn and wait for the experts to chime in.

 

[SKWERLZ]

i can’t imagine eliminating extra glass with a direct mount wouldn’t produce a better image. From experience even a phone camera on an adapter won’t keep you from seeing impacts and misses at 2 plus miles especially on a Kowa Prominar.

 

[Fred Bohl]

SKWERLZ

Eyepiece Projection by eliminating the camera lens does produce a brighter and potentially more technically “better” image. However, the image size at the sensor will be small. The diameter will be the objective diameter divided by the magnification of the spotter for example 66mm/60x = 1.1mm and with typical sensor pixel pitch of 0.002mm yielding only 550 pixel diameter which is poor resolution.

 

[SteveOak]

Steve it would be very helpful if you would tell us what you intend to do with the image files.

However, to try to be helpful let’s start with the basic concepts.

Eyepiece Projection - using the spotter with its lens and the camera without a lens the adapter locates the camera image sensor at the eye point/eye relief position of the spotter lens.

Digiscoping - using the lenses of both the spotter and camera the adapters locate the camera image sensor at the back focus of the camera lens. Note that this normally requires the internal focal plane of camera lens to be at the eye point/eye relief position of the spotter lens which limits camera lens selection or ability to achieve focus.

Books have been written about both techniques but the question of which is preferable is dependent on how the images obtained are intended to be used.

I’m going to make some popcorn and wait for the experts to chime in.

I will use it for spotting shots for myself at 1 mile.

A few months ago I got an urge to shoot at a gong of ~ 2 MOA at a mile. I kinda hoped the urge would subside, but it has not. LOL

I do not expect to have someone to sport for me.

I have most of the parts to build an ELR rifle except a barrel which I had to order. Still working on the freebore so I can order the reamer, but there is time for that. I do have a 6mm barrel and a 6 BR AI reamer to shoot at 1,000 yards to have some fun and sort things out while I am waiting on Kreiger to make a barrel for me.

I have found a few things. With no lens on the DLSR you have to physically move the camera in and out to achieve the best focus. If you have a lens you use the focus ring of the lens.

I think, in both configurations, the eyepiece of the spotting scope is retained.

The DSLR lens does have a magnifying effect but I am not sure how much or how to calculate it. I did see the calculations but I'm not sure where I saw it. I'll have to find it again.

Yesterday I found some software to use a DSLR as a webcam to get the live video from the DSLR to a tablet or laptop. I think I can use VLC or something like it to record shots so I can review them if the splash is hard to see.

Why not cellphone? The sensor on a cellphone is in the 5mm X 5mm range. The sensor on my DSLR is 35mmX 24MM. 33 times more sensor area. The 'magnification' of a cell phone is done be simply looking at a smaller area of the sensor. Unlike optical magnification there is no additional image present, it is not actually magnification. Then there is the superior quality of the sensor and the Expeed processing which a cell phone does not have. Plus, the quality of the lens (In this case, Nikon.) on a DSLR is orders of magnitude better in sharpness, distortion (or rather lack of distortion), image accuracy and light transmissivity.

Here is a lens + eyepiece configuration.

 

[SKWERLZ]

I will use it for spotting shots for myself at 1 mile.

A few months ago I got an urge to shoot at a gong of ~ 2 MOA at a mile. I kinda hoped the urge would subside, but it has not. LOL

I do not expect to have someone to sport for me.

I have most of the parts to build an ELR rifle except a barrel which I had to order. Still working on the freebore so I can order the reamer, but there is time for that. I do have a 6mm barrel and a 6 BR AI reamer to shoot at 1,000 yards to have some fun and sort things out while I am waiting on Kreiger to make a barrel for me.

I have found a few things. With no lens on the DLSR you have to physically move the camera in and out to achieve the best focus. If you have a lens you use the focus ring of the lens.

I think, in both configurations, the eyepeice of the spotting scope is retained.

The DSLR lens does have a magnifying effect but I am not sure how much or how to calculate it. I did see the calculations but I'm not sure where I saw it. I'll have to find it again.

Yesterday I found some software to use a DSLR as a webcam to get the live video from the DSLR to a tablet or laptop. I think I can use VLC or something like it to record shots so I can review them if the splash is hard to see.

Why not cellphone? The sensor on a cellphone is in the 5mm X 5mm range. The sensor on my DSLR is 35mmX 24MM. 33 times more sensor area. The 'magnification' of a cell phone is done be simply looking at a smaller area of the sensor. Unlike optical magnification there is no additional image present, it is not actually magnification. Then there is the superior quality of the sensor and the Expeed processing which a cell phone does not have. Plus, the quality of the lens (In this case, Nikon.) on a DSLR is orders of magnitude better in sharpness, distortion (or rather lack of distortion), image accuracy and light transmissivity.

Here is a lens + eyepiece configuration.

Well any remotely decent spotting scope with camera or phone camera can get it done so whatever you do it will help.

This is a $500 bushy spotter and ancient iPhone video

https://rumble.com/v6tzkj1-2020-yards-with-338-edge.html

 

[Fred Bohl]

Steve I should tell you that I’ve been a SRBR (100, 200, 300, 600 and 1000 yards) shooter for 66 years and have no experience with ELR shooting. I have also been an astronomy hobbyist for the last 60 years including photography through telescopes. However, I’ve been experimenting with photography through spotting scopes and rifle scopes for only the last 25 years.

The best advice I can offer is that given the equipment you have the camera mounting method in the picture in your #7 post above will be best. Further, start with both the camera and spotter focus set for infinity which is then A-focal (without focus). At long range this may avoid the difficulty of focusing given the long depth field and depth of focus. I’ve had good success with this method at 1000 yards.

Best of luck with your ELR journey.

 

[ghostrider272]

So I can chime in on this with some insight (not a lot). I have a Kowa 773 and went with the PA7 adapter and T2 mount for my Sony. Doug and crew at CameralandNY hooked me up. When I want to take photos, I just remove the lens, add the T2/PA7 adapter and slide it over the zoom/fixed eyepiece on the 773. This way I have zoom lens of 1000-2450 mm. I believe you have to focus through the spotter (been a bit since I used it) but I feel that Kowa definitely leads the pack on DSLR digiscoping adaptors. Had the mount for my Bushnell Elite 20-60x80 and that was nice, but required the zoom eyepiece to be removed so you could install the adapter.

 

[SteveOak]

Thank you @Fred Bohl

@ghostrider272 Why would you want to remove the lens?

 

[muleystalker]

Optical zoom from the camera or phone combined with lower power on the spotting scope will yield the better experience. Even a 5x optical on some phones now with 30x spotter yields 150x. This is far clearer than a kowa tsn 883 with 1.6 multiplier. This is 99x. 30x allows more light imo. If there is an adaptor that allows the dslr with lens to be mounted...this is the way to go. IF GOPRO HAD AN OPTICAL ZOOM it would win hands down due to weight. I think this is where you will run into issue with the dslr. The go pro is perfect size for digiscoping. It needs a optical zoom to be perfect plus it creates its own wifi. Attaching the dslr weight concerns me. Balance stability.
Just some comments from what I have seen.

The mini DSLR's like the Olympus I bought my daughter works good for this, you can attach it with the lens but it doesn't weigh anything near what a full size DSLR weighs.

 

[Fred Bohl]

Steve generally speaking each lens adds more abbreviations and subtracts some of the light. Therefore the best method for image quality is prime focus or sensor at focal point of the objective lens however this is very difficult to achieve. Next best is eyepiece projection which uses the scope ocular lens but no camera lens and sensor at the ocular lens focal point and will be somewhat lower image quality and dimmer. last in image quality and dimest is afocal aka digiscoping which uses both the scope lens ocular lens and camera lens this is “tricky” method but most of us have all but the correct adapter.

I personally prefer the eyepiece projection method but to each his own choice.

I should add that the Howa eyepiece projection adapters are very good at providing a firm connection, access to the eyepiece zoom control and usually a filter to protect the camera body.

 

[SteveOak]

Not sure that would work for me. Does the mini DSLR you refer to output live video?

Anyway, I already have a Nikon D750 and a 50mm f1.4 lens.

 

[SteveOak]

Steve generally speaking each lens adds more abbreviations and subtracts some of the light. Therefore the best method for image quality is prime focus or sensor at focal point of the objective lens however this is very difficult to achieve. Next best is eyepiece projection which uses the scope ocular lens but no camera lens and sensor at the ocular lens focal point and will be somewhat lower image quality and dimmer. last in image quality and dimest is afocal aka digiscoping which uses both the scope lens ocular lens and camera lens this is “tricky” method but most of us have all but the correct adapter.

I personally prefer the eyepiece projection method but to each his own choice.

I should add that the Howa eyepiece projection adapters are very good at providing a firm connection, access to the eyepiece zoom control and usually a filter to protect the camera body.

From your other post, the pic in post #7 shows a configuration using the spotting scope eyepiece and a lens on the camera. I have been Googling to find out what the benefits and possible detriments with and without are. I emailed Kowa but have not received a response yet.

The lens I have for my D750 is a 50mm f1.4 so not much light loss and the characteristics of this lens are quite good. As to light loss, seems as though a larger objective on the spotting scope would make up for that, or at least help.

Not sure how a filter to protect the camera body would be integrated into the configuration without a lens on the camera. What am I missing?

Thanks!

 

[ShaunBrady]

I think most of the issues have been identified here but am going to add 2 cents anyway.

I've been an ELR shooter for 10 years now and have done the self spotting thing front to back. Started with cell phone adaptors on cheap spotters through the Swaro STR80. I'm currently using a Nikon P1000 with a wifi adaptor to my phone on the mat.

What I'd like to add is:

1 - The image needs to be visible from your shooting position. Having precision optics there isn't an good option. You might beat lens frosting with a filter but if it isn't a rifle scope, it really isn't designed for the beating the brake will give it. My LabRadar needed servicing when the screen went dead. When they received it, they asked if it had been used with a heavily braked magnum. Yup, and it knocked the screen connector loose. In my videos, the muzzle blast hitting my truck 20 feet away sounds like a hammer is being used.

2 - Transmitting video to the mat will reduce its resolution to HD. The camera may record UHD, but it probably won't do a live output at that resolution. UHD is still a long ways from the photo quality of a DSLR. HD isn't a problem with a screen the size of your phone, but the finer points of photography are lost. It still looks good on a tablet, but if the tablet is placed just ahead of the magazine, it'll give the big screen effect. The splash image will be larger, but you can't watch the whole screen at once and may still miss it.

3 - Adding an interface between the spotter and the camera isn't the same as adding a lens filter as far as image quality is concerned. Spreading the image over a larger percentage of the sensor is a higher priority.

4 - My take on the largest advantages of digital photography are the sophisticated exposure controls and post processing. Your eye might have trouble picking out the target when a bright day is blowing out the spotter image, but a DSLR has several options for correcting that. Adding a Vivid filter to the output will also help pick splashes out of the background. More contrast is the best aid I've found for mirage.

5 - A reticle in the spotting scope is good when a spotter is communicating with the shooter. For self spotting, I find having a reticle only in the rifle is more intuitive and reduces mental overheads.

6 - Latency in the image transmission can be a useful thing. Not having it shouldn't be a problem at a mile, but trading anything else to reduce it isn't necessary.

The super zoom hobby camera is the best solution I've found for ELR self spotting. I'd like to find a better wifi adaptor and App than the one I'm using though.

 

[Fred Bohl]

Not sure how a filter to protect the camera body would be integrated into the configuration without a lens on the camera. What am I missing?

As best as I remember it is a clear flat both sides and screws into the camera side of the adapter. This keeps dirt out of the camera.