Disapointed with Wilson seater die.

[Donkey]

I have started using a Wilson seater die and my base to ogive variation has gone up from 1' to 5'.

This is not an acceptable variation in my mind. The seater stem also left a pronounced mark on the projectile. I fixed the marking issue with some sand paper wrapped around a projectile in a drill and now it is clean but that hasn't fixed the seating depth issue.

This could be an issue with nose shape variation. If that is the case and this is to be expected with factory bullets then it would seem to make better sense to me to have elected to have the seater stem contact the bullet closer to it's tip which seems to be a some what more consistent measurement.

I'm using 155gr Lapua Scenars. Has anyone else had this issue? Anyone managed to fix it?


Cheers
Jason

 

[artbosco]

I have started using a Wilson seater die and my base to ogive variation has gone up from 1' to 5'.

1 foot to 5 feet? How about .001" [inch] to .005".

Try looking at JUST THE BULLETS variation in base to ogive dimension. You can see quite a bit difference if they're not a custom made bullet. Most of the stuff off the shelf can be way off.

I've used Wilson Seaters for years with nary a problem.

 

[BoydAllen]

Just out of curiosity, if you measure the diameter of a sized case neck, and compare that to the same neck with a seated bullet, how much is the difference? In short, how much neck tension are you using?

 

[Erik Cortina]

Is it a compressed load?

 

[expiper]

Make shur that the point of the bullet is NOT touching the inside of the seater stem cavity....(up in the hole in the stem) ...some bullets are very long and pointy and have been known to touch there....and some stems are not counterbored enuff....every once in a while there is a mistake,,,,buttt the Wilson seater is the standard for precision .....let us know what u find ..please...Roger

 

[Donkey]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Outdoorsman: Have you measured a batch of 30 or so seated rounds from base to barrel ogive? What sort of variation do you get? In my mind the measurement for batching bullets that is relvent here is barrel ogive to seater steam ogive. Do you agree?

Boyd: I'm using .00175" neck tension

Erik: No they are not compressed loads (I know what you are getting at

expiper: No they are not bottoming out in the seater stem which is why I got the markings on the projectiles until I smoothed them out.


I'm thinking that either the Lapua Scenars have terribly inconsitant nose profiles or that Wilson should offer a variety of seater stems to suit differnet projectiles.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I'm thinking that either the Lapua Scenars have terribly inconsitant nose profiles or that Wilson should offer a variety of seater stems to suit differnet projectiles.

No they don't, I shoot literally thousands of Lapua Scenars every year and I don't ever have that problem, oh yeah, and I seat with Wilson seaters.

One modification I always do to the seating stems is that when I get them, I chuck up a bullet in a drill, put IOSSO paste on it and spin it inside the stem to make the stem match the profile of the bullet perfectly. That gets rid of the ring mark you are talking about and makes seating more consistent.

I think what might be happening is that it will seat the bullets to the same depth, but when you pull the seating stem out it might pull the bullet out slightly on some of them. Does the seating stem feel like it is stuck on the bullet when you pull it out?

 

[Shynloco]

Personally, I've not encountered that issue you are talking about. Perhaps thats because I don't use that bullet. In fact, I specifically use Wilson Seater Dies on 5 different calibers because they gives the LEAST variance (.0001 - .0002) in bullet runout on competed (I only use Lapua brass) cartridges using a Hornady or Sinclar concentricity gage.

 

[bozo699]

Donkey,
I believe Wilson does make two different seater stems, you might call and ask. Also I have found Lapua bullets to be the most consistent over the counter ( non-custom ) out there,as a matter of fact I still sort Sierra and Berger by by to ogive length but have stopped sorting Lapua's as it seamed to be a waste of time as I found there to be less then .0005 variation in length.
Wayne.

 

[Donkey]

Hi Wayne.

Thanks for that I'll give them a call. Most likely I'll just make my own. On a side note the batch of Lapua Scenars I'm using have a .003" ES OAL over 100 rounds.

 

[artbosco]

Outdoorsman: Have you measured a batch of 30 or so seated rounds from base to barrel ogive?

I'm not sure what you mean by a barrel ogive. I'm only familiar with the bullet's ogive.

What sort of variation do you get?

I don't get any variation in the case's base to bullet's ogive because if there was any difference in the bullet's base to bullet's ogive the difference is going to end up inside the case neck.

In my mind the measurement for batching bullets that is relevent here is barrel ogive to seater steam ogive. Do you agree?

I going to have to disagree with that dimension measurement criteria. I'm first and foremost interested in finding a good bullet source to begin with. My sources are: http://www.bartsbullets.com/ and http://www.rcheek.com/ . Their bullet base to bullet ogive are very consistent. Beyond that, I'm only interested in a seated round's dimension that once seated into the lands, gives me a square mark on or near the bullet's ogive. Since all my seated bullets give me that mark [measured hundred's of times, not just 30] I know that my case base to square mark on the bullet is a consistent dimension and consistency is what I'm looking for. As the throat erodes, I seat my bullet a little longer than previously, so as to retain the consistency of dimension from case base to square mark on the bullet.

 

[Donkey]

Thanks Outdoorsman:

To clarify. By barrel ogive I mean the ogive of the bullet where the barrel meets it. By seater stem ogive I mean the ogive of the bullet where the seater stem meets it. Variation in the bullets barrel ogive to seater stem ogive = variation in base to ogive (barrel) lengths. Hence in your case variation in the length of the marks on your bullets. I jump so in my case variation in my jump length. Previously I would have an extreme spread of .001" in a batch of 45 rounds. With the Wilson seater that extreme spread has increased to .005".

I think this is because it seats further down the side of the bullets jacket than my previous seater. The reasons why this is less consistent are many and I'm not sure which one it is.

-Barrel ogive to seater stem ogive on these projectiles is inconsistent.
-The angle of the seater stem mouth is too sharp for these projectiles nose shape and it distorts the jacket an inconsistent amount depending on slight seating pressure inconsistencies.
-There is something problematical in the Wilson seater's micro adjuster (too much thread float for instance)
-Something else all together.

What ever the reason I will need to fix it as .005” variation, I think most Wilson Seater users would agree, is less than ideal.


All the best
Jason

 

[artbosco]

What ever the reason I will need to fix it as .005” variation, I think most Wilson Seater users would agree, is less than ideal.

As I mentioned above, I've been using four micro adjustable Wilson Seaters for four years on four different calibers. One for the 6mm Beggs, 6PPC, 30BR and 308 Winchester, without a problem, using bullets with different Ogives.

I would suggest you give the supervising technical expert at L.E. Wilson a call: http://www.lewilson.com/contactus.html to discuss your problem. I'm sure they've heard similar situations like this over the life of the company and may have an immediate fix in their bag of tricks. I've found over the years that by going directly to the manufacturing source my problems were usually solved expeditiously.

Note: Office Phone Hours: 8:30am to 5pm Mon - Thurs PST

 

[bozo699]

Donkey,
I think Outdoorsman has given you sound advice, call Wilson.
I have only had real bad inconsistent seating depths a couple of times in my precision reloading career, when I first tried using better equipment and really trying to get perfect ammo I had a loading block with 50 pieces of brass all of which each piece had unknown amount of firings, another words 50 pieces of brass with inconsistent neck tension, once I figured that out ( through the help of others ) I tried my hand at annealing ??? messed that up as well and still had inconsistent seating depths, why?.... I still had inconsistent neck tension, so I scrapped the brass and eventually learned to have near perfect OAL in my loaded rounds, I inside and outside turn my necks, always keep the same amount of firings on each piece of brass, and sort all my bullets by base to ogive measurment, now here is where I believe it gets interesting and will probably have some people jump on me for telling you this, the ogive isn't a small few thousands long particular spot on a bullet, I have never owned a seating die that seats the bullet where the seating stem touches the bullet in the exact same spot where the bullet will hit the rifling's on your barrel!! You buy oal measurement tools that measure at close to bore diameter, yet the seating stem doesn't even come close to that measurement SO WHY BOTHER measuring with those tools!!! I pull the seating stem from my dies and use it to sort my bullets and to measure oal of my loaded cartridge since that is the tool that is seating my bullets! I believe that is why many people jam rather than jump, so everything is consistent. The only way I would know how to do it by measuring your exact bore where the bullet will make contact with and make a tool for your measuring system with that EXACT bore diameter, seat your bullets long then use the micro function of your die and continue to seat and measure until you are exactly there, but you will have to do this with each round as each tip of the bullet can vary a little from one to another and thats where your seating stem is making contact on your bullet at, (hence)
why I use the seating stem for measuring

 

[in2deep]

I thought I had a seater problem also as measured base to ogive lengths on seated rounds varied by 6 thou. or more but realized the seater is a simple mechanical device that was actually repeating well but the Sierra bullets varied by that much and was the culprit and not the nice Forster seating die.
A bullet comparator quickly got me on the right track and saved me from condemning the die and wasting time but your problem may be different.

 

[lynn]

Donkey
I am not familar with thwe Lapua bullet you are referencing but the variation you are seeing is very common on the VLD type bullets used in 600-1000 yard shooting.
I have bullets here right now from the same lot # with 0.013 variation.
If you want them to shoot use you seater to get the barrel ogive within 0.001 are your groups won't be to good.
Lynn

 

[boogershooter]

Just an idea, after you seat the bullet flip the die over and look to make sure the case is flush with the bottom of the die.

 

[lynn]

Boogershooter
You can simply take 25 bullets and spin them in a seater stem so it leaves a ring around them.
You can then spin them in a comparator tool for the same caliber and measure the difference in the spacing of the two rings.
Its simpler just to seat them and measure the variation with a comparator but this takes away any doubts.
Lynn

 

[GerryM]

Theres alot of good advice.
I think Cortina hit it on the head though.
For precision reloading i would lap the bullet you like best into the seating stem.