Difficult to remove carbon (not standard powder fouling)

[scyzer]

I've got a fresh barrel that I've shot in and played with a few times. I've been trying to keep the barrel completely clean (perhaps unnecessarily) and I've noticed with my borescope that there is this grey staining that covers the entirety of the barrel (it's slightly darker closer to the chamber). This staining does not get removed regardless of the amount of bronze brushing with any combination of solvent. To date I have tried:

• Pro Shot 1-Step
• Wipe-out/Patch-out with and without the accelerator product
  
• Carb-out
  
• The suite of Bore Tech products
• Etc.

I've tried multiple dwell times (as long as 2 days with the wipe-out) and have not had any luck tackling this. What does get it out is simply JB/solvent on a patch wrapped on a brush and a lot of stroking.

Is this the hardened carbon that I've read about previously? How does one keep on top of it?

(Is JB always necessary after every shoot/Is there an easier way)?

I also wonder if cleaning between strings (but not well enough) contributes to baking this staining in?

Thoughts and guidance would be very much appreciated!

 

[DngBat7]

When I get tough carbon deposits, I stick a wet patch of kroil oil and let sit and penetrate. That stuff is pretty good at getting off tough carbon If thats what it is that you have

 

[BoydAllen]

I would let your barrel's accuracy guide your frequency of JB use. You may be suffering from bore scope shock. ;-) The reason for cleaning a barrel is to maintain accuracy. Your bore scope has you using another standard. Does the gray color appear to build in thickness as the number of shots increases? Does accuracy improve after you use JB and then re-foul the bore? What powder are you using?

 

[T-shooter]

There is some information on cleaning carbon here along with pictures:
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/thorroclean-bore-cleaning-system.3949315/

 

[rardoin]

Bronze brush and carbon remover of your choice. Give it 50 strokes, patch it out then nylon brush with a carbon/copper remover for 25-50 strokes, patch out with the combo cleaner until patches are clear. I use Iosso paste on a nylon brush for 25-30 strokes (after the bronze brush and before the combo cleaner on nylon brush) every 150 rounds or so. I keep my barrel bare metal clean as verified by a Hawkeye. I cleaned my bore last evening after 58 test rounds then 70 fireforming rounds and had it done in 13 patches including the last patch to lube the bore.

I have bronze brushes and not afraid to use them.

 

[scyzer]

I would let your barrel's accuracy guide your frequency of JB use. You may be suffering from bore scope shock. ;-) The reason for cleaning a barrel is to maintain accuracy. Your bore scope has you using another standard. Does the gray color appear to build in thickness as the number of shots increases? Does accuracy improve after you use JB and then re-foul the bore? What powder are you using?

Thanks Boyd. A mild load of ADI 2206-H. To be honest I haven’t seen any movement in accuracy after refouling the fully clean bore (that said I’ve been cleaning thoroughly every 50 rounds or so). Should I see how long I can stretch this period out to get a baseline?

I might see if I can get some of that ThorroClean shipped abroad...

 

[BoydAllen]

I would see how far I could let it go between JB applications, and figure out how few strokes with JB you can get away with when you use it.

 

[Irv Benzion]

As you all should be aware Carbon is the most difficult of fouling to remove as it is an element. I have tried many and continue to test different carbon removers. Most of them simply do not work. Especially if their solvent is a petroleum product. Bore Tec C4 or Eliminator remove most carbon with several regimes, stroking 25 or 50 times with a bronze brush. But even the Bore Tec products mentioned, will not remove the bottom layer of carbon

The final coat of carbon is really difficult to remove. It is more like it is vulcanized (not true chemically) perhaps better stated it wold appear that the carbon is bonded to the steel. So far I have not found a way to removed it chemically without applying some type of abrasive to do the job.

Lately I have been using Flitz Bore Cleaner after removing the surface fouling with Bore Tech. The one you want is Flitz in the black plastic container and the cleaner has a light green color. I spoke to the owner of Flitz and he guarantees that his product will not hurt the bore. It does contain an abrasive component but I was told that it is the shape of the abrasive that prevents bore damage only cleaning the bore. I have cleaned rifles fired over 200 times between cleanings an so far there has not been a degradation of accuracy. Shot a .22-250 last week at 200 and the 5 shot group size was .6 with a 4 shot cluster of .28.

This product will remove all carbon down to bright metal with a couple of 25-50 stroke regimes (verified with a Hawkeye). I have applied the Flitz on a patch but it is easier just coating a bronze brush with Flitz and stroking the bore. There will be some brush degradation (they don't last as long) but brushes are cheap and this method surely does work quickly and effectively.

I have used J.B.s but it requires a greater number regimes to accomplish the same task.

This product is available from most distributors, Midway, Brownells, Midwest, and Natcheez. The cost is in the 12-13 dollar range.

For more information I refer you to a somewhat dated article I wrote for Precision Shooting some years ago. The products have changed but the core data is still the same. http://camdenrgc.com/techie/lands and grooves.htm

Irv Benzion

 

[eas1949]

http://www.orisonmarketing.com/pistonkleen.html?gclid=CIqrjIbc87YCFUzhQgodRnwAZQ

http://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm

Eric

 

[retired]

actually if it is grey it is not likely to be carbon. maybe a stain.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

If jb gets it out id say its carbon and keep using it.
The other side of me says ditch the borescope and see what the target tells you

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

When I get tough carbon deposits, I stick a wet patch of kroil oil and let sit and penetrate. That stuff is pretty good at getting off tough carbon If thats what it is that you have

Let it sit for a couple hours and chase it with C4 and let sit for another couple hours before patching out. Gets everything out my barrels except the hard carbon in the throat and a bot of coper but that gets wipe out and iosso on a spinning brush for the throat.

 

[Nude nut]

I have no issues getting carbon out of my barrels I clean the throat of carbon after every shoot even if not cleaning the barrel the longer it's left the worse it is I do not own a bronze brush don't need one.
The stiff blue loss brushes are all I use and mercury tune spray if I want to do the whole barrel with a few hundred rounds down it it gets the citric acid treatment.
The barrel I used in the pictures in the past on this forum is still been used at the present and shot a .486 8 shot group at 300mtrs the last time used and has 5000 rounds through it citric acid don't do no harm.

Cheers Trev.

 

[spclark]

I would let your barrel's accuracy guide your frequency of JB use. You may be suffering from bore scope shock.

Indeed.

Borescopes are the solvent-and-brush makers best sales tool.

Powdermakers OTOH go to great lengths to formulate their products to do a number of things besides pushing bullets down barrel bores.

One of those I believe is to leave a bit of something behind that both aids passage of the next bullet while also adding a layer of protection to the bore surface, thus extending its useful lifetime.

What you’re seeing may not be carbon, and is supposed to be there.

As you all should be aware Carbon is the most difficult of fouling to remove as it is an element.

What’s Copper then if not an element?

Carbon’s troubles come from its different physical structures (diamond being one extreme, graphite another) not ‘cause it’s an element.

 

[Irv Benzion]

Copper is a metal and can be dissolved by other chemicals such as ammonia. Sweets is ammonia. Now there are other chemicals which are odorless and do not attack the metal like ammonia does. Bore Tec's copper solvent is a prime example.

 

[boltman13]

The Flitz method was recomended to me and to use one size smaller bronze brush with a patch on it and soaked in Flitz and stroke it about 20 times only where the carbon ring was located, not the whole barrel. It worked to remove a carbon ring on a Hart 6.5 mm. barrel. Now I use BoreTech C4 carbon remover then a copper solvent and no more carbon rings.

 

[Fotheringill]

The other side of me says ditch the borescope and see what the target tells you

Methinks Dusty be right.

I have a large plastic storage box just crammed full of various general and dedicated cleaners. I vowed a year and a half ago, no more purchases since what I have will last more years than I have left in me.

However, I found that CarbOut and especially Slick 2000 Carbon Remover work best with a minimum of effort. I have a lifetime supply of both, as well.

 

[Brians356]

The Flitz method was recomended to me and to use one size smaller bronze brush with a patch on it and soaked in Flitz and stroke it about 20 times only where the carbon ring was located, not the whole barrel. It worked to remove a carbon ring on a Hart 6.5 mm. barrel. Now I use BoreTech C4 carbon remover then a copper solvent and no more carbon rings.

I never liked the patch around brush idea. I feel a better support for the patch is a Parker-Hale style jag, with a patch wrapped around it like a roll of paper towels. Cut the patch for a tight fit in the bore. Coat the entire outside of the cylinder with the product (I use Corbin's myself, or JB or Flitz etc) then short-stroke the patch from breech out the muzzle, a single one-way pass, advancing but never retracting the rod.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1934122994/dewey-parker-hale-style-rifle-cleaning-jag-thread-brass
-

 

[seymour fish]

As you all should be aware Carbon is the most difficult of fouling to remove as it is an element. I have tried many and continue to test different carbon removers. Most of them simply do not work. Especially if their solvent is a petroleum product. Bore Tec C4 or Eliminator remove most carbon with several regimes, stroking 25 or 50 times with a bronze brush. But even the Bore Tec products mentioned, will not remove the bottom layer of carbon

The final coat of carbon is really difficult to remove. It is more like it is vulcanized (not true chemically) perhaps better stated it wold appear that the carbon is bonded to the steel. So far I have not found a way to removed it chemically without applying some type of abrasive to do the job.

Lately I have been using Flitz Bore Cleaner after removing the surface fouling with Bore Tech. The one you want is Flitz in the black plastic container and the cleaner has a light green color. I spoke to the owner of Flitz and he guarantees that his product will not hurt the bore. It does contain an abrasive component but I was told that it is the shape of the abrasive that prevents bore damage only cleaning the bore. I have cleaned rifles fired over 200 times between cleanings an so far there has not been a degradation of accuracy. Shot a .22-250 last week at 200 and the 5 shot group size was .6 with a 4 shot cluster of .28.

This product will remove all carbon down to bright metal with a couple of 25-50 stroke regimes (verified with a Hawkeye). I have applied the Flitz on a patch but it is easier just coating a bronze brush with Flitz and stroking the bore. There will be some brush degradation (they don't last as long) but brushes are cheap and this method surely does work quickly and effectively.

I have used J.B.s but it requires a greater number regimes to accomplish the same task.

This product is available from most distributors, Midway, Brownells, Midwest, and Natcheez. The cost is in the 12-13 dollar range.

For more information I refer you to a somewhat dated article I wrote for Precision Shooting some years ago. The products have changed but the core data is still the same. http://camdenrgc.com/techie/lands and grooves.htm

Irv Benzion

Flitz! You bet it’s good

 

[BoydAllen]

The problem with Flitz is that it polishes, quite rapidly. You do not want a mirror finish in your CF bore. Ask any barrel maker about this. It will increase the propensity for jacket fouling. You would be amazed at how coarse the abrasive is that is used for final lapping for finish.