Difficult .308 Win.

[cjames]

I have a Remington 700 308 Win. Current Barrel is a Krieger 11 twist in #5P contour 23" long 4 grove. Action trued etc. McMillan bedded stock. This is the second barrel I have put on this action. First barrel was a #4 Benchmark 10 twist 5R 23" long. I supplied the barrel and all parts on the first time around. I Put at least 250 rounds of different bullets, powder, primers, seating depths. Fired barreled action in 2 stocks and 2 scopes. Best I could get was 1" 3 shot group. Sent the rifle to Benchmark they said the barrel measured within specs with no further details. So, I had my smith order the second barrel so if there was a problem he would be the one to take care of it. This barrel is doing the same thing. I took it back to the smith and he shot (1) 4 shot group that was about 1" but had 3 of the 4 shots touching. He said that the shot that opened up the group was a fouler and didn't count and nothing wrong with the rifle. But it shoots 1" or bigger every group. I have 4 custom barreled rifles all barreled by him and the fouler goes with the group on all of them. And they all shoot but this one. Also, I had him leave a long shank 2" before the contour starts on both barrels. The Benchmark had a deep throat. 165 Nosler Ballistic Tip was 2.867" COAL to the lands. This is a hunting rifle and I'm using the factory magazine and wanted a shorter throat also. This Krieger has a short throat same bullet is 2.800 to lands and still the same thing. The fun has wore way off and I'm not enjoying this rifle. It's making me want to start shooting shotguns or pistols or take up golf. Everything I read is how forgiving and easy to load a 308 is. This one is not. I've had 2 buddies try work up loads and get it to shoot also. They are getting the exact same results as me.
Could setting the barrel back be worth a try and could a reamer that was used on a barrel affect the way it shoots? Does anyone have any advise on what to try next. I'm ready to say to hell with it and cut my loses and let someone else own it and see what they can do with it.

 

[chkunz]

308 one inch group sounds good to me. If you have a lot of experience with much better results then your dissatisfaction may be well founded. If you are just listening to what others claim on the interweb that they are getting then you may have unrealistic expectations. Keep in mind that for the long run average five shots groups are 1.23 times larger than three shot groups, ten shot groups are 1.53 times larger than three shot groups and twenty shot groups are 1.79 times larger than three shot groups. Mother Nature is a bitch.

 

[Dans40X]

Use said Bbls for tent stakes.

Find another 'smith.

 

[JasonT]

The likelihood that a Benchmark barrel is bad is probably less than 1%. The likelihood that a Krieger barrel is bad is probably less than 0.5%. The likelihood that BOTH are bad is minuscule.

Before I go complaining and demanding my money back from the smith, I would try a Remage barrel from Mcgowen, criterion, etc... Pick up a go gauge while you're at it and do it yourself.

Also grab a couple of federal gold medal match 175gr ammo boxes. They're true .5moa in a good rifle.

If those work better, then you've narrowed down your issue to smithing quality or ammo loading practices. If the results are similarly bad, you may want to consider that the receiver truing job wasn't great, the bedding isn't right, and/or you just need more trigger time behind a 308. In all likelihood, it's a combo of many things.

Just to put it in perspective, I bought a cheap green mountain barrel from midway and threaded it for a mosin receiver and re-chambered it on my cheapo Grizzly 11x26 lathe. With surplus Yugo (nice, but not match grade) ammo, it groups into less than 1 Moa easy.

My custom 308 was built from a Remington 700 by GA Precision with a Bartlein barrel and shoots 0.3" or less if I try.

My point is that the .308 is (and should be) an easy cartridge to load for 0.5moa. If you're not getting at least .75" 5 shot groups, with federal gold medal 175gr ammo through an 11tw Krieger barrel, something is wrong.

I'm guessing, in no particular order:
-throat is rough or irregularly cut
-chamber is off-center
-the action truing job wasn't great and didn't straighten the threads or recut all seating/bearing surfaces truly perpendicular to the bore.
-the trigger is inconsistent
-the custom loaded ammo isn't properly tuned for that particular gun (sometimes they like a lot of jump)
- the crown is dinged up (very possible but easy to fix)

Try to limit your variables by working with things that are almost always accurate with a good 308 gun. FGMM ammo, a lead sled, a quiet range/area with no distractions, etc...

Report back with any of your findings, I'm curious what you end up doing!

 

[johnfred1965]

Good Lord, not GOLF! I feel your pain, my 308 won't group under an inch with handloads, or FGMM, black hills, or any other match ammo, or a new barrel. my buddy's rem vsf puts the same stuff in one ragged hole, go figure. I gave up on it for target work, it gets shot once a year or so, hoping it will fix itself. but enough of my problems.

I would check the bedding to make sure you did not miss a binding issue or a hint of looseness. even in different stocks you may not get an exact fit. How confident are you with the truing? You don't have to have a perfect action to shoot good groups, but it could affect your ultimate accuracy. A blemished crown? Again hard to imagine with two barrels, but still something easy to check. You mentioned the 165 BT, were the other bullets you and your buddies tried also hunting bullets? Maybe try some match projectiles or match ammo. Like they say, if it won't shoot FGMM, it is likely the gun, that is when I came to my senses and stopped wasting rounds. Your Smith shot ONE group and declared it good? I'd have him shoot it some more to verify the consistency or find out how he gets it to shoot. Wish I could give you some more to go on, But that rifle I have is something I'd like to forget! good luck with it

 

[johnfred1965]

Looks Like JasonT and I have some of the same thoughts, didnt see his post while I was writing. Heres hoping two heads are better than one and we hit on something that helps

 

[JasonT]

Looks Like JasonT and I have some of the same thoughts, didnt see his post while I was writing. Heres hoping two heads are better than one and we hit on something that helps

What he said

 

[JasonT]

One thing I'll add is that your scope and mounting system are both incredibly important to accuracy. If you spend thousands on a custom rifle, you want to make sure that your base(s) and rings are strong, concentric, rigid, and repeatable. I like badger ordnance rings and bases because I know that they'll take anything I can dish and more.

The 308 has a noticeable amount of recoil, so the mount is important.

 

[jr600yd]

Since your "problem" appears the same with two quality barrels I'd be looking at something else. Start with the simple stuff. Are the action screws tight and if so are they torqued? How much? Are your scope base screws tight? Rings? It doesn't sound like a bedding problem since it occurs in two stocks but I'd check anyway. Change the scope and shoot some groups, see if any improvement in group size. Maybe it's not the rifle!

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Id also be looking for common factors between barrels. What didn't get taken apart/changed during the second rebarrel? Look there.

For example, was the scope removed from the base, but left in the rings? Is the front scope base screw bearing on the barrel threads? is one of the action screws touching the bolt? Is the bolt handle touching the stock?

What does the ignition system look like? Light firing pin strikes can and do cause accuracy problems.

What is common between your and your friend's attempts to make it shoot? Did you try different brass, bullets, primers, powder? Did you run the entire load window?

I feel for you. I have fought a bad barrel before. I believe that chances are that you now have two good barrels and a different problem.

 

[cjames]

Thanks for all your responses. I was frustrated when I wrote the original post. I'm sure not going to take up golf.... Yet. Maybe start shotgun'n more. I don't think either barrel is bad. And I don't think the smith work is bad either. He has been talked about on this web sight and has an excellent reputation. Also had my but kick by quite a few of the rifles he has built on the firing line. I just wish he would have shot more than 1, 4 shot group. Benchmark said the gunsmithing was excellent when they inspected the first barrel. Like I said I have had the barreled action in 2 stocks. A McMillian BDL that the smith bedded and a H&S unbedded stock. Two scopes with different basses and rings. The hunting scope is a Zeiss and I took my Nightforce Benchrest scope, rings and base off of my 6BR and same results with both. I even swapped out triggers and put a 8 oz Calvin Elite. To eliminate the nut behind the bolt factor, I had 2 of my buddies load at there house and shot it also. I gave them the bullets, brass, and primers. I've even shot some Hornady ELD-X 178's in it. Groups were from 1/2" to 2" out of the same box with a 3 shot 5 group average of about 1.4". I'm shooting Lapua brass. Varget RL-15, H4895, XBR, and even tried Benchmark. 150, 165 & 168 Nosler Ballistic Tips, 165 Sierra BT.'s 150 Partitions and Barnes 150 TTSX's. Winchester LR, CCI LR, Federeal Match LR primers. and adjusted seating depths. I torque everything down and had my buddies double check that. And even check the barrel with a bore scope to make sure I'm not copper or carben fowled. I would like to screw the barrels on on other action and see how they shoot on an other one. But this is the only Remmy short action I have and don't want to pay to do it anyway. I have factory guns that will out shoot this one by alot. And it is my least accurate rifle I own at this time, factory or custom. My question is can certain reamers be used on barrels and shoot good in some barrels but not others. And I have read on this site about George Gardner at GAP setting barrels back on rifles that wont shoot and then they do after he is done. If this was a factory rifle and I didn't have so much money in it, it would have already found a new home at the gun show. Now it like my wife, it cheaper to keep her.

 

[butchlambert]

JasonT Your quote: My custom 308 was built from a Remington 700 by GA Precision with a Bartlein barrel and shoots 0.3" or less if I try.
You don't always try?

 

[johnfred1965]

Thanks for all your responses. I was frustrated when I wrote the original post. I'm sure not going to take up golf.... Yet. Maybe start shotgun'n more. I don't think either barrel is bad. And I don't think the smith work is bad either. He has been talked about on this web sight and has an excellent reputation. Also had my but kick by quite a few of the rifles he has built on the firing line. I just wish he would have shot more than 1, 4 shot group. Benchmark said the gunsmithing was excellent when they inspected the first barrel. Like I said I have had the barreled action in 2 stocks. A McMillian BDL that the smith bedded and a H&S unbedded stock. Two scopes with different basses and rings. The hunting scope is a Zeiss and I took my Nightforce Benchrest scope, rings and base off of my 6BR and same results with both. I even swapped out triggers and put a 8 oz Calvin Elite. To eliminate the nut behind the bolt factor, I had 2 of my buddies load at there house and shot it also. I gave them the bullets, brass, and primers. I've even shot some Hornady ELD-X 178's in it. Groups were from 1/2" to 2" out of the same box with a 3 shot 5 group average of about 1.4". I'm shooting Lapua brass. Varget RL-15, H4895, XBR, and even tried Benchmark. 150, 165 & 168 Nosler Ballistic Tips, 165 Sierra BT.'s 150 Partitions and Barnes 150 TTSX's. Winchester LR, CCI LR, Federeal Match LR primers. and adjusted seating depths. I torque everything down and had my buddies double check that. And even check the barrel with a bore scope to make sure I'm not copper or carben fowled. I would like to screw the barrels on on other action and see how they shoot on an other one. But this is the only Remmy short action I have and don't want to pay to do it anyway. I have factory guns that will out shoot this one by alot. And it is my least accurate rifle I own at this time, factory or custom. My question is can certain reamers be used on barrels and shoot good in some barrels but not others. And I have read on this site about George Gardner at GAP setting barrels back on rifles that wont shoot and then they do after he is done. If this was a factory rifle and I didn't have so much money in it, it would have already found a new home at the gun show. Now it like my wife, it cheaper to keep her.

Sporting Clays:Golf with Guns
johnfred

 

[DaveTooley]

Something mechanical. Your smith can't see the forest for the trees. It happens to me occasionally. You need another experienced set eyes to take a look.

 

[Sniper338]

I agree with the above. You need to let a different smith with a goof rep look at it all. Im sure it can be fixed

 

[cjames]

Something mechanical. Your smith can't see the forest for the trees. It happens to me occasionally. You need another experienced set eyes to take a look.

Yes Sir. I do commercial HVAC for a living. And there is times when one of us is on a chiller or a boiler or something and we're stumped, another tech with a fresh set of eyes on it helps.

Sniper338 I'm with ya also. But I think I better go with a smith with a good rep instead of a goof rep. LOL.

 

[Sniper338]

Yes Sir. I do commercial HVAC for a living. And there is times when one of us is on a chiller or a boiler or something and we're stumped, another tech with a fresh set of eyes on it helps.

Sniper338 I'm with ya also. But I think I better go with a smith with a good rep instead of a goof rep. LOL.

That may be a good idea

 

[JasonT]

JasonT Your quote: My custom 308 was built from a Remington 700 by GA Precision with a Bartlein barrel and shoots 0.3" or less if I try.
You don't always try?

Butch - of course I always try! But the .2" and .3" groups are very difficult unless it's quiet and there are no blasts from a braked 300 winmag or 338 lapua next to me!

The gun was put together so well by GAP that I find myself just shooting 6" steel targets at 600 yards (the loud "whop" is so satisfying when a 230gr bullet hits 1/2" steel) without much effort required. My girlfriend, who had never shot a rifle, was able to print a .75" 5 shot group at 100yds on her first try! So definitely a tip of the hat to GAP.

 

[dryhumor]

Pull your firing pin assy out and make sure the spring isn't an issue. Or alignment.

 

[Riesel]

Pull your firing pin assy out and make sure the spring isn't an issue. Or alignment.

What he said. You have checked everything over and run this through the wringer. Try a new firing pin or a new assembly. You sound like a pretty steady shooter so I would look at inconsistent ignition. Something like a backfire