die questions.... I'm confused.

[OutKaste]

Cat,
You can stand by your 'stuff' all you want, your still wrong.
If you truly believe what you say, accept my challenge. Prove to me and everyone else that what you say is true. I am more than willing to so.

Gman,
There is no need to anneal cases. Been there done that. It is a waste of time and money. Most of those who anneal have not tried Jones dies and do not understand how they work.
These dies are not for the average shooter. They are for people who are serious about accuracy and there components and the time they put into them.

Preacher,
True. Brass will harden no matter how little it is worked. The brass will only work harden to a certain level and then stop. At this point, the brass is in perfect condition. Normally around 6-8 firings. You will have to drop .001" to regain original neck tension. From here, you will not need to change the neck tension again and unless the necks are being sized an excessive amount, .005-.006" + the necks will not split. Also, the neck tension will be the same each time. Part of what causes the necks to split when oversizing is the fact that the brass grows. As the brass grows, it also thins out.
32/20 necks are usually around .007-.008" per side. This brass does not take to a lot of sizing. This is only roughly .003" per side over what most brass is turned to but, enough to cause a problem.

Try this for your self if you do not believe me. This will only cost you 2 pieces of brass,maybe), some bullets, primers, powder and a little time. If you have the place or weather to do so, check the accuracy while you're at it.
Take a brand new piece of brass, size it with your die and measure the bore dia of the neck. Now, fire it. Check the bore again. Resize it. Check again. Continue this for 10 or even 20 shots. Write down all your results.
Now, go through your regular routine you use for annealing,with another new piece of brass). Check all dims the same as the above. write everything down and compare.
Notice the amount of spring back you get with annealed or new brass compared to worked brass. Which one is more consistent?
I should add that if there is any case prep that you go through, reaming, neck turning, etc.., do it.

I'm not trying to be a jerk,I know, I know.......)just trying to let people see that, just because it is written in a mag or you have never tried it, doesn't mean it doesn't work.
What's the worse that can happen here? Someone might be proven wrong?

I really hope you guys will give this a try.

 

[rstreich]

OutKaste, in your first post you said that annealing was "damaging" to cases. In subsequent posts, you've changed to "unnecessary" based on your limited experience and the experience of someone else. There's a huge difference between those statements. To state that "is one of the most damaging things you can do to your brass" is just flat wrong.

If you want to claim that you've found it to be unnecessary, fine. There are a pile of counter-examples on this board and others where people have found that annealing was a solution to various problems that they encountered.

Neil Jones' dies aren't magic. They won't heal all of the shooting world's ills. If they did, he'd never be able to keep up with demand. What they are is a nice piece of equipment to have on your bench bought from a nice guy who has been very helpful to me and, I'm sure, others. Besides, there's nothing unique about Neil's dies with regards to neck sizing.

I'll give you a simple challenge: Form 100 17 Mach IV cases from LC 223 brass without annealing and 100 with annealing. Fire a bunch of groups with the 100 cases that were formed with annealing and then a bunch or groups with whatever is left of the 100 formed without annealing and see which group shoots the best. We'll all be waiting for your results.

 

[OutKaste]

rstreich,
Sorry. Let me explain what I meant. Damaging not as to shorten the life of the brass but to give inconsistent results. If you are constantly changing the hardness of your brass over 3-4 shots, you will never have the same neck tension. This leads to inaccuracy.

As for my 'limited' experience, you have no idea of how long I've been doing this or to what extent of my experimentations or my involvement of such. I've been involved in the development of some pretty wild cartridges, far more than most, and have never found the use of annealing when things are done in the correct manner.

Niel's dies are not like any other. I'm talking about the FL bump die. And just so you know, there is a several month waiting period to get dies because he can not keep up with the orders.

Your challenge is flawed. Might as well use military brass. LC is almost as brittle as military and I would not use it if you gave me all I could use for free. I have no problem doing it with Rem, Norma or Lapua brass though. That would take 6 maybe 7 forming bushing with 2 ID reamings and no annealing. This has been done before with larger dia brass taken down to 20 and 17 cal with no annealing during the forming process or after when reloading. No lost cases either. So, I would say unless you are using crap brass,LC or military), nothing to worry about. I will take your challenge but with only 3 Lapua brass and let you know how long they last without ANY annealing. If you would like pics of each forming op to show that I'm not cheating, that can be done.

Will you take mine?