OK,
Catshooter, glad you had a laugh. You are the one being laughed at right now due to showing your ignorance.
Quote:Outkaste... Badd puppy.
With misleading statements like yours, your gonna live up to your nickname real soon.
---Quote:I don't speak of something I know nothing about. Unlike you.
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Originally Posted by OutKaste
bobinpa,
The best way to size your brass is to use a FL die with neck and shoulder bump bushing EVERY time.
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Nonsense. The purpose of a "bump die" is to bump the shoulder back a few thou when the case is tight in the chamber.
---Wrong. You only want to bump it back just enough to chamber.
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If the case is NOT tight in the chamber, there is NO NEED to bump the shoulder,Duh??).
---Really? I see people asking about this problem all the time. Seems that after so many shots, closing the bolt becomes a problem.
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The ideal fit for a case in the chamber is 0.0001" clearance all around. More than that is loose space that leads to cases not being chambered the same each time for "perfect" results,for those that are anal compulsive).
---Agree.
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When the case headspace becomes a negative number,the case head to datum line is longer than the bolt face to chamber datum line), you need to bump the shoulder back THE LEAST AMOUNT POSSIBLE, to provide clearance.
---As stated above.
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To bump the shoulder every time you load the case is just plain silly, and badd loading technique.
---How so? Waiting until you NEED to bump the shoulder is harder on the brass.
1 - "... is to use a FL die with neck and shoulder bump bushing EVERY time
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You can NOT bump a neck!
---I never said to bump the neck.
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There is no such thing as a "shoulder bump bushing".
---Wrong again. The bushing sizes the neck and bumps the shoulder at the same time. The bushing is set with a micrometer top to the desired amount of bump. That is something you will have to figure out to set up the dies properly.
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You do NOT need to size the body every time you load the case.
---Wrong again. You want the brass consistent. Not getting a little bigger over several shots and then squeezing it down all at one time.
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Such silliness will invite early fatality of the case, because... when you reduce the diameter of the body, the brass moves,Ta-ta) FORWARDS... causing the case shoulder to hit the chamber shoulder, causing tight chambering.
---Silliness because you were either taught wrong, do not understand or just too stubborn to see things as they really are.
A FL die with a shoulder bump set correct will not allow the above to happen.
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Is there anything about this "sizing loop" that sounds like you are chasing your tail,or shoulder, so to speak ).
FL dies also size the body diameter - and that is rarely necessary,I have NEVER had a body of a case need sizing for a rifle that it was fired in).
---Just because YOU never had to have it means that NOBODY needs it?
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Do this with REAL custom dies and not something just called custom.,Those that you can call up and have them shipped right out to you. How can that be custom to YOUR gun?) Custom dies are made to your chamber only.
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And the "need" for a custom shoulder bump die is WHAT?... exactly??
---Like stated before, to keep the brass as consistently close to chamber dims as possible.
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The shoulder bump die simply moves the shoulder back a few thou... and it's use is not too much. There is nothing that a custom bump die will do that an off the rack Redding bump die won't do... and no advantage to a custom die,except to the guy that makes it).
---Again. Not a clue. The Redding die is not made to YOUR chamber. Only to SAMMI specs which are wide open.
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As for over working the brass, you do not have to worry about that as long as the case are sized minimally.
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FL dies do NOT size the case minimally... they FULL SIZE THE CASE - that's why they are called FL dies.
---Again, you do not understand the terminology. As little as possible all around the case for consistency.
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If you have a tight chamber, these are the type of dies you want. If you are shooting a factory chambered gun with a large neck, it is possible to over work the brass in the neck area and have them start to crack.
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Nonsense.
The purpose of a bushing die is to minimally size the neck - if the chamber is SOOOO large that it will cause neck problems, you need to set the barrel back and cut a new chamber,and find a new smith to do the work).
---Some people shoot factory rifles with large chambers. So, if you are blowing the necks out .005-.006†and sizing them that much, they will not last a long time. You can not just size a neck down .003†if it is expanding .006â€. You have to take it down to hole the bullet. .006†is over working the brass.
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"... The better it fits the chamber, the more consistent it will shoot.
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That's exactly why you DON'T FL size the case every time you load it.
---I’m talking about squeezing the case down .0005-.001â€. Nothing more.
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One last thing, do not fall into the belief of annealing brass. That is one of the most damaging things you can do to your brass.
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Barf-a-roony. Pure unadulterated BS.
---It’s only bs because you don’t understand it.
I did annealing for a bit and found out that it is a waste of time and effort.
I've been told that you have to anneal when forming brass to a smaller caliber too. Never had a problem not annealing.
I have one set of 500 pcs of match cases that started out as 308, and spent several years in a heavy match rifle, then were sized down to 7mm-08 for a silly-wet rifle, then sized up to 308 again for another match rifle.
I can't count how many times they were annealed, but they have been fired over 20 times each, since 1975... and I haven't lost a single case,actually, I lost a few in the grass, but NOT to case failures!). I anneal cases enuff that I use a 20 pound propane bottle with a torch adapter.
---I have a TC Contender that has a somewhat loose chamber. The necks blow out about .004â€. I took one case and fired 35 times, fl resizing and shoulder bumping after every shot, and the only problems so far is having the OAL grow about .007â€. I’m not real sure how long the neck will last blowing out this far every time but that piece alone has paid for itself. It was never annealed either.
---Jones has some cases that have several thousand, yes thousand, firing on them from the use of these dies. They have never been annealed and will never need it.
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I hope this helps. Any questions, let me know.
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Yeah.. I gots one question - WHERE THE HELL DO YOU GET THIS CRAPOLA???
---From someone who has been doing this for a lot longer than you.
.
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There are folks that believe that if a BR shooter does it, it MUST be good for all.
---I don’t agree. These type of products are out there for the ‘accuracy minded’. I don’t think that these type of dies are for the average hunter. Unless you are putting a lot of time and money into the sport, it’s not worth it.
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It is important to remember that Benchrest is NOT completely about accuracy, though accuracy is important.
BR is about the "AG"... and that is accomplished by shooting a group of groups, and averaging them.
The BR shooter,assuming a reasonable rifle) is interested more in wind and mirage, and shooting through the windows in the wind is what brings down the AG.
---I’m sorry? Can you say that again out loud and listen to yourself?
If you do not have an accurate gun, wind doesn’t make a difference.
Now that is a statement worthy of laughter!!!
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The art of the rifle now exceeds the ability of nearly all outdoor shooters at "point blank" BR ranges. Guns and scopes that could shoot 0.05" and less have been available for some 30 years... and that was a long time before bushing dies.
Go here for an "illuminating" read.
http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html
So the current challenge for the BR shooter is to watch those pretty sunflower wind gauges and when there is a lull, shoot as many shots through that window as possible, before the conditions change.
In order to do this, the rifle MUST be smooth, so that loading does not move or otherwise upset the rifle, requiring it to be substantially moved to regain alignment.
---And don’t forget ACCURATE.
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This is why the BR shooter FL sizes the case when loading - so there is absolutely "0" resistance in chambering the case... because what ever 0.0x" in "technical" group size is gained by the case having a tight fit, is lost in the time it take to shoot the group, and it shows up in the "AG".
So it is a trade off - cases that are not as good a fit, in exchange for the speed of shooting in a wind lull - the trade off will almost always result in smaller "AGs"
If BR shooters shoot inside, and there was no time limits, and they were rated only on smallest group,like in the "OLD DAYS"), so that absolute accuracy was the only goal, they would use cases that were a damn tight fit in the chamber.
---Never heard that one before but could be true.
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Originally Posted by CatShooter
1 - "... is to use a FL die with neck and shoulder bump bushing EVERY time
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The bushings in Neil's dies are NOT fitted to the shoulder - you are debating about a product that you have no knowledge about.
---Wrong again! You are the one who does not know what you are talking about. Jones’ are the only true custom die that just that. And, it is to YOUR gun ONLY. Not interchangeable with another.
You seem to know an awful lot about Jones’ products yet you have never used them. How does that work?
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Also, like 'em or not, Forster now has their bushing bump dies.
and I don't understand the "Like 'em or not" remark - I like Forster and use a bunch of their stuff - they have been very cooperative in making "Ultra seaters" that other guys would not make.
But the point of this is that the Forster and the Neil Jones bushing are the same as the Redding bushing dies - same bushings,Forster's are a bit longer), and they are interchangeable.
Neither has bushings that touch the shoulder.
So it do appear that you are debating something that you don't have experience with, but are getting,or "Mis-getting") your information from catalogues, and don't understand what you are reading. or talking about.
As Marth Stewart would say, "... and that's a very bad thing!!"
---What is funny to me is that you act as an authority of something you clearing know little about. Like asked above, where does your experience of his products come from?
Jones’ bushings are not the same as the others. If you had ever dealt with them, which you obviously have not, you would know the difference and understand the way they work.
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A "shoulder bump" is a minimal set back of the shoulder, usually on the order of .001" or so. I haven't seen how the Forster dies work,NO KIDDING!!), but I don't see how you can push the shoulder back without expanding the shoulder diameter also.
---Because you don’t understand the mechanics of it and have never tried them!
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You bet you haven't seen the Forster die - cus if you had, you would know that it works like all of the other guys dies work.
I disagree with your disparagement of custom dies, but I don't know of any empirical data to support their use. Personally, I've chosen to be a bit of a sheep in this respect and use what many of the top shooters use, i.e., custom dies.
---The guys out there that use them keep buying more. Find someone who has a set and see what they have to say.
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$175 for a bump die... is off the wall!!
---I know they’re expensive. But, why spend $2500 on a gun, $1000 on a scope, $.043+ per brass,not counting all the prep time for each case), countless $ on all the other equipment and then only spend a little on one of the most important components? Makes no sense to me what so ever.
He was talking about custom dies in this case, so, technically, he was correct. A custom die, as in a Jones' or Carstensen' die, or a semi-custom like a Harrells' will give you a minimal sizing at key points. The consistency comes from sizing the brass to the same dimensions every time instead of having a cycle where the brass is increasing in dimensions ever so slightly for a number of firings until it gets a much larger sizing down to make it fit again, e.g., using an off-the-shelf FL sizer or body die.
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"Technically"... he was not correct. Anytime you move or size metal, especially brass, you weaken the crystalline structure. Weakening the brass leads to failure.
Custom dies cannot be made to fit the body properly, because sendng them a few fired cases sounds "Kustom", but in reality, the cases are NOT the size of the chamber, because brass springs back - and it does NOT spring back the same in each case,a bad pun)... taking the same chamber, and firing Lapua, Winchester, and Remington... once fired and five times fired - NONE of the cases will have the same body diameter, because NONE of the cases have the same brass hardness and the same thickness, so they don't have the same spring back - to make a REAL custom die, would require a Cerrosafe chamber cast, and very few guys,including gunsmiths) can do that accurately.
---First, the guys who are shooting BR are not shooting several types of brass. It is the same brand and usually purchased in large lots so that the brass is as close to being the same as possible.
Second, you don't make the die from the chamber. Yo make it according to how the brass is reacting to the chamber.
Actually, making a chamber casting is quite simple if you know what and how to do it.
If you need to have cases that feed flawlessly, like in a BR match, it is worth the price of reduced case life,and $175 dies) to get the loading speed, and get the shots inside the wind or mirage windows... but if you don't need that speed, like in 1,000yd BR or in PD shooting, the tighter the case in the chamber,assuming that you can close it) the better... and the cases will last forever.
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Outkaste's comments were made up garbage
---The cases will and do last.
Up for a challenge? We can take the same chambering and you do your thing and I’ll do mine and we’ll see what happens.
If you are as knowledgeable as you say, you have nothing to worry about.
Put your money where your mouth is. I just did.
