Degree of Ammo Prep vs Benefits in Factory Rifles?

[Phil3]

As I was preparing 223 Remington ammo I wondered if there is a point of diminishing returns in the accuracy vs the level of preparation when the ammo is used in a factory rifle (Howa bolt action w/Howa barrel, bedded by gun builder in Bell & Carlson stock), or my AR-15 w/Krieger barrel. Especially at my shooting distance of 100 yards. Would lovingly prepared BR quality ammo shot out of the Howa or AR do any better than more conventionally loaded ammo? For instance:

Lapua brass, sorted by +/- 1 grain, fire formed, neck sized (FL on AR), neck turned, debur of flash hole, primer pocket sizing, bullets weighed, seated to ogive to lands depth, measured and sorted for runout, etc.

vs

Winchester brass, sorted by +/- 2 grains, fire formed, full length resized, no neck turning, seated to OAL.


Will the Howa or AR even notice at 100 yards, with both on a front and rear bag? Yes, I can experiment, but wanted some opinions.

Phil

 

[eric32]

depends on the rifle i think, some are more picky than others.

never cleaned the primer pocket or uniformed them just FL sized and not sorted a piece of brass, tumbled in walnut media for a bit.

VS

the full BR brass prep ( sorting my bullets,brass,FL sized, primer pocket uniformed cleaned,necks turned)

and my rifle didnt notice the diffrent prep steps but your could be different

 

[ar10ar15man]

like the man says , depends on the rifle.
a 4 gr sperad on a "match load" would probably be noticable at 600yds..at 100...who knows.

prep a handful of brass for each rifle.
find a load each likes, then try it again with less prepped brass and see what happens.....

( do not tell anyone but i neck size my match brass for some of my ar's....but do not tell anyone, they all know you cannot do that)

 

[GSPV]

I'd disagree with some of your BR loading criteria.

Most short range folks using Lapua brass aren't sorting by weight. I do it, but I just take the cases in the tail of the curve and make them my foulers. The rest go into one lot.

Most of us are FL resizing. But, it's a minimal FL as the die is matched to the chamber.

We neck turn to clean up the neck. Sometimes, for historical reasons, it's more than that. But, that's the idea. Turning necks in SAAMI-sized necks is almost completely a waste of time. It'd just be making the fit worse.

I inspect my cases and take out any visible flakes in the flash hole. The others, I do not mess with.

I do "uniform" the primer pockets, but that's because the 205M that I use is just a skosh tall for the Lapua pocket.

I use custom bullets. I don't weigh them, sort them or anything.

I don't check each round for run out. All I do is periodically check a sample for TIR. I don't do it every time. Mostly when I change dies or similar.

Where most benchrest shooters have a leg up is they have very accurate rifles and they learn how to tune the ammo to the rifle and the conditions. In a factory rifle, I think the basic reloading steps are no different, but the fine tuning would be a waste of time.

 

[yukonal]

I feel it's worth it.

 

[fdshuster]

GSPV hit the nail on the head, related to bullets. Buy the best you can get.

 

[amlevin]

I do it all so my wife doesn't see me with "nothing to do". If I'm not busy prepping brass or actually reloading she has my butt out cleaning flower beds, lawn mowing, painting, etc.

Brass Prep has definite benefits 8)

 

[Shynloco]

Where most benchrest shooters have a leg up is they have very accurate rifles and they learn how to tune the ammo to the rifle and the conditions. In a factory rifle, I think the basic reloading steps are no different, but the fine tuning would be a waste of time.

BINGO...we have a winner! I've always believed it is a completely unrealistic to believe that a general production rifle will ever shoot as well or accurately as a dedicated custom benchrest rig that costs $3500 (starting and without glass). But as GSPV writes, I do much the same and many love the challenge of trying.

Alex

 

[Phil3]

I know it is completely unrealistic for a production rifle to shoot as well as a custom rig. If it could, why have a custom rig? I guess I will do some experimenting to see what my AR-15 and production Howa can "appreciate" in terms of ammo. They may (or may not) do any better after moving up from Cracker Barrel or Waffle House quality ammo, to "ammo from heaven", but will see. I like precision tools and parts, and like you, like the challenge of trying to make top notch ammo.

Phil

 

[Shynloco]

I know it is completely unrealistic for a production rifle to shoot as well as a custom rig. If it could, why have a custom rig?
Phil

Phil,
My comments wasn't meant as a negative or an insult toward you or your post. Ain't my style and never has been. But I've seen numerous others bitch and complain (on several blogs) why the rifle they (1/4 the price of a very accurate rig) buy won't perform as well as the expensive ones. And the reason why some folks have custom rigs is not only because they shoot more accurately, but is because they flatly enjoy building a rifle they've designed to their specs. But I'm one who can't afford the $3500 - $10,000 rifles but do enjoy trying to find the most accurate load for each specific rifle I own and reload for, nontheless. Part of it is the challenge while the other part is still trying to get the best humanly possible out of each rifle, regardless of the price.

Alex

 

[K22]

I guess it depends on your expectations - I'm satisfied with 1/2 moa accuracy from my factory varmint rifles and 1 moa from my big game rifles although several of mine exceed these expectations.

My reloading procedures are not elaborate: I trim, deburr flash holes, and uniform pockets. The one issue I paid a lot of attention to is resizing and head space. I full length resize with an approx .002 shoulder bump both for accuracy and functionality reasons. I also tune my reloads for optimum seating depth.

I found these procedure to be satisfactory for my purposes but can't honestly prove that even deburring flash holes and uniforming pocket have made any significant difference. The most significant affect I've seen on accuracy (from a reloading standpoint) in my factory rifles is the selection of the bullet followed by selection of a suitable powder followed by seating depth.

I do have one rifle with a custom barrel, a Douglas match that is a sub 1/4 moa rifle even with my rather simplified reloading methods. So I think a match barrel can make a huge difference in pushing groups below 1/2 moa. Of course a sound bedding system is essential for accuracy and factory rifles can benefit from improving the bedding system if the factory one is not sound.

PS - Loading has lost its allure for me a long time ago so the less time I spent at the reloading bench the more I like it.

 

[XTR]

When it comes to W-W brass most of the weight variance comes from the differences in the extractor cut and not wall thickness that effects the volume of the case. My match rifles hold .3s vertical with W-W and I don't weight sort anything. You can drive yourself batty with this stuff.

 

[357Mag]

Phil3 -

Howdy !

Can't speak to Howa specifically, but will say that prepping .35 Rem brass using benchrest type practices; has helped me get my
" benchrest " Marlin M-336 XLR shooting just stupid accurate. 5-shot 100yd groups ( reduced load of IMR4759 w/ tissue barrier and "PUFFLON filler ) go into 5/8" @ 100.... when I do my part.
I have one 5-shot group that has 4ea of the shots in a .250" group, and the 5th shot right where I held off the group.. based on what
( I thought ) the wind flag was showing me. Rats !!

IMHO - meticulous case prep has its place.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[357Mag]

Phil3 -

Oops.... forgot to include this pic; too.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[Phil3]

I know it is completely unrealistic for a production rifle to shoot as well as a custom rig. If it could, why have a custom rig?
Phil

Phil,
My comments wasn't meant as a negative or an insult toward you or your post. Ain't my style and never has been. But I've seen numerous others bitch and complain (on several blogs) why the rifle they (1/4 the price of a very accurate rig) buy won't perform as well as the expensive ones. And the reason why some folks have custom rigs is not only because they shoot more accurately, but is because they flatly enjoy building a rifle they've designed to their specs. But I'm one who can't afford the $3500 - $10,000 rifles but do enjoy trying to find the most accurate load for each specific rifle I own and reload for, nontheless. Part of it is the challenge while the other part is still trying to get the best humanly possible out of each rifle, regardless of the price.

Alex

Alex,

Sorry, my response came across as more negative than intended. I took no offense at all. Like you, I built my AR because I wanted it the way I like it, and opted for the Howa action and barrel because I like the design (integral recoil lug, M16 style extractor, solid one piece forged bolt). And like you, I wanted to see just how well I could make the AR shoot. There is some satisfaction of shooting a gas gun that out performs a friend's bolt gun. So yes, neither may put bullets in the same hole, but expect to have some fun on how close I can get these two to that point.

Phil

 

[chevytruck_83]

For me, factory nosler brass untouched in a factory rifle is hard to beat. Yes im comparing it to lapua. The thing is though. If your debating on starting to do these things because your new to reloading... Do every step you can. This will make you a better reloader. It will help you understand how everything will effect accuracy and when your ready to get a benchrest quality rifle youll be ready to reload for such a rifle.

 

[amlevin]

Factory rifles may not be as intrinsically as accurate as a dedicated BR Rifle but it sure feels nice to go out with one and shoot a sub 1/4 MOA group with one. Removing as many variables as possible from the ammo can go a long way to improving that "factory" setup. Coupled with good shooting techniques and one may not win a BR Match but they will certainly sprout a bunch of big "Smiles" when seeing a 5-Shot .200" group shot by that "Factory" rifle.

 

[Rbreb13]

I'm absolutely positive that I do things that are unnecessary when reloading. Some of my reloads for some rifles I'm downright anal about the prep. Others not so much.
But it makes me feel better when I'm shooting that I know I did everything I could to produce the most accurate load possible.

 

[BoydAllen]

I see it all the time. On line discussions that pretend as if the only two variables are the rifle and the load. There are a few other big ones that can have a big effect on what shows and what does not. First of all, the shooter, all shooters are not created equal. Secondly, the bench, if it wiggles at all, that will tend to enlarge groups in a random manner and obscure the effects of other factors. The rest/ sandbag system....some are a lot better than others, and rife fit matters. The use of some sort of wind indicators, shooting wind blind is not going to give consistent results. Trigger pull can be a major factor, and it is common to have a trigger worked over or replaced on factory rifles. This one mod. can make a huge difference. Back in the day, when all of my shooting was with tuned up Remingtons in various varminting calibers, I could usually tune the rifle and ammunition to beat 3/8" on a good day, and under 1/2" any time that the wind didn't bite me. If you think that you can ignore any factor that matters, that's fine, let me know how that works for you, but if you enjoy doing the best you can with what you can afford, chase down all of these details before you start coming to too many conclusions.

 

[Phil3]

I see it all the time. On line discussions that pretend as if the only two variables are the rifle and the load. There are a few other big ones that can have a big effect on what shows and what does not. First of all, the shooter, all shooters are not created equal. Secondly, the bench, if it wiggles at all, that will tend to enlarge groups in a random manner and obscure the effects of other factors. The rest/ sandbag system....some are a lot better than others, and rife fit matters. The use of some sort of wind indicators, shooting wind blind is not going to give consistent results. Trigger pull can be a major factor, and it is common to have a trigger worked over or replaced on factory rifles. This one mod. can make a huge difference. Back in the day, when all of my shooting was with tuned up Remingtons in various varminting calibers, I could usually tune the rifle and ammunition to beat 3/8" on a good day, and under 1/2" any time that the wind didn't bite me. If you think that you can ignore any factor that matters, that's fine, let me know how that works for you, but if you enjoy doing the best you can with what you can afford, chase down all of these details before you start coming to too many conclusions.

I feel pretty good then, as a novice, to have considered all these things. Probably because of way too much time reading and learning, including a lot of time spent here. The fact that my daughter can outshoot me (so far) is proof positive of how the shooter matters. I check for bench rigidity and asked here in another recent post about the impact of a bipod vs front rest on accuracy. I already got a rear bag setup. My AR uses a Geiselle trigger, set for 2 lbs on stage one, and 10 oz on stage two. A benchrest competitor shot my AR and found the trigger "excellent". I shoot at 100 yards, and most of the time, at my range, there is no wind. I even watch how long a round sits in a hot chamber, finding one that sits in there for too long tends to wander a bit.

Phil