Defiance Deviant Elite

[SGK]

So I was taking a closer look at my new rifle which finally I picked up yesterday. The action is the Defiance Deviant Elite. This action/bolt doesn't have a 'conventional' ejector pin. (Correct terminology?) I'm wondering about two things.

1. A classic sign of over-pressure is an imprint on the case head from the ejector pin. This bolt/action has a recess rather than pin on the bolt face. (The spent case is extracted rearward towards a fixed pin at the rear of the action. The recess allows the bolt to pass over the pin which kicks the case out.) So what to look for? Brass flowing into the recess?

2. I understand that typically the ejector pin prevents a case with a bumped shoulder from 'sitting sloppy' in the chamber because it is always pushing the case forward such that the case shoulder is up against the chamber and the 1-2 thou headspace sits at the rear. This action/bolt doesn't seem have anything pushing the case shoulder to the chamber. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that a case will sit sloppy in the chamber (At least to the extent there is slop between the extractor plate and case rim) rather than being pressured forward and aligning the bullet with the lands.

A pic of the Elite bolt nose can be found here:

https://defiancemachine.com/options/

and can be compared with the ejector pin and claw flat bolt nose.

Enlighten me?

 

[GAnderson]

So I was taking a closer look at my new rifle which finally I picked up yesterday. The action is the Defiance Deviant Elite. This action/bolt doesn't have a 'conventional' ejector pin. (Correct terminology?) I'm wondering about two things.

1. A classic sign of over-pressure is an imprint on the case head from the ejector pin. This bolt/action has a recess rather than pin on the bolt face. (The spent case is extracted rearward towards a fixed pin at the rear of the action. The recess allows the bolt to pass over the pin which kicks the case out.) So what to look for? Brass flowing into the recess?

2. I understand that typically the ejector pin prevents a case with a bumped shoulder from 'sitting sloppy' in the chamber because it is always pushing the case forward such that the case shoulder is up against the chamber and the 1-2 thou headspace sits at the rear. This action/bolt doesn't seem have anything pushing the case shoulder to the chamber. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that a case will sit sloppy in the chamber (At least to the extent there is slop between the extractor plate and case rim) rather than being pressured forward and aligning the bullet with the lands.

A pic of the Elite bolt nose can be found here:

https://defiancemachine.com/options/

and can be compared with the ejector pin and claw flat bolt nose.

Enlighten me?

The typical imprint on the case head from higher pressure is not made by the "pin"...if you notice, this imprint is actually raised...therefore the "print" you see is actually the recess that the "pin" rides in...at least that has been my experience. The pressure forces the case head back against the bolt face, pushing the ejector pin back into its recess and the brass head "flows" into the recess. Run your fingernail over the case head next time you have this event and see that it is raised. I would assume that if you were to over pressure on this new bolt that you would also see an "imprint" on the case head from the groove in the bolt. Sako bolts are designed this way as well.

Gene

 

[moondog]

I look at the primer radius when I pop them out. Different primers have different hardness cups. But, it's a good indication of whats going on.

 

[Kurz]

It's called a standing ejector or Springfield ejector. This one in particular is in a Ruger M77:



Here's one the ARC action:

 

[Milo 2.0]

So I was taking a closer look at my new rifle which finally I picked up yesterday. The action is the Defiance Deviant Elite. This action/bolt doesn't have a 'conventional' ejector pin. (Correct terminology?) I'm wondering about two things.

1. A classic sign of over-pressure is an imprint on the case head from the ejector pin. This bolt/action has a recess rather than pin on the bolt face. (The spent case is extracted rearward towards a fixed pin at the rear of the action. The recess allows the bolt to pass over the pin which kicks the case out.) So what to look for? Brass flowing into the recess?

2. I understand that typically the ejector pin prevents a case with a bumped shoulder from 'sitting sloppy' in the chamber because it is always pushing the case forward such that the case shoulder is up against the chamber and the 1-2 thou headspace sits at the rear. This action/bolt doesn't seem have anything pushing the case shoulder to the chamber. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that a case will sit sloppy in the chamber (At least to the extent there is slop between the extractor plate and case rim) rather than being pressured forward and aligning the bullet with the lands.

A pic of the Elite bolt nose can be found here:

https://defiancemachine.com/options/

and can be compared with the ejector pin and claw flat bolt nose.

Enlighten me?

I've always called it mechanical eject. If you manage to put enough powder in a case to get a ejector slot mark on your brass with one of these, you are seriously over pressure if the bolt face is machined correctly.
I'd think the exact opposite would go on in a chamber with a bolt with an ejector plunger, if your brass is undersize(new), the force of the plunger will push at an angle. With a CRF like you have, once the case is picked up from the magazine, it's a straight shot in and out of the chamber. With the claw supporting the top or front of the case head, it cannot be too tight or it would not pick up the case.
The force you run your bolt backwards dictates how far you fling the brass on ejection, slow and easy, it'll dump right beside the rifle, run the bolt you stole it, it'll 25 feet.

 

[dminn1]

So I was taking a closer look at my new rifle which finally I picked up yesterday. The action is the Defiance Deviant Elite. This action/bolt doesn't have a 'conventional' ejector pin. (Correct terminology?) I'm wondering about two things.

1. A classic sign of over-pressure is an imprint on the case head from the ejector pin. This bolt/action has a recess rather than pin on the bolt face. (The spent case is extracted rearward towards a fixed pin at the rear of the action. The recess allows the bolt to pass over the pin which kicks the case out.) So what to look for? Brass flowing into the recess?

2. I understand that typically the ejector pin prevents a case with a bumped shoulder from 'sitting sloppy' in the chamber because it is always pushing the case forward such that the case shoulder is up against the chamber and the 1-2 thou headspace sits at the rear. This action/bolt doesn't seem have anything pushing the case shoulder to the chamber. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that a case will sit sloppy in the chamber (At least to the extent there is slop between the extractor plate and case rim) rather than being pressured forward and aligning the bullet with the lands.

A pic of the Elite bolt nose can be found here:

https://defiancemachine.com/options/

and can be compared with the ejector pin and claw flat bolt nose.

Enlighten me?

To point # 2 in the above post, the firing pin impact will do the aligning and centering of the case shoulder in the chamber. Ignition is a big part of the overall accuracy equation and I think proper pin fall, spring force, and consistent bind free pin travel are a great aid in our quest to keep vibrations the same from round to round.

 

[HIC3540]

My Big Horns are the same setup. I see pressure signs on ladder tests the same as with a standard Deviant.

 

[HIC3540]

Gene from a post above covers the brass flow. If you are seriously over pressure that raised area is swiped as the bolt is rotated on lift, hence the hard bolt lift.

 

[SGK]

ok thanks I'm clear on point 1. On point 2, I'd always read here that it was good that the ejector pin (when at the bolt face) was forcing the case forward and, with good case concentricity and a partially sized neck, helping good alignment. I guess I'm a little sceptical that this can be achieved during ignition by the force of the firing pin. Or put another way, it would seem that if it does occur then the aforesaid benefits of the ejector pin pressure aren't really the case.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

This action/bolt doesn't seem have anything pushing the case shoulder to the chamber. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that a case will sit sloppy in the chamber (At least to the extent there is slop between the extractor plate and case rim) rather than being pressured forward and aligning the bullet with the lands.

Well I would hope your chamber isnt sloppy enough to allow much case movement. An ejector spring/pin doesn't align a case in the chamber, in fact it probably causes a slight 'misalignment' by applying force to only one side of the case. I always lighten my ejector springs to the point where they only apply enough force to lay the case out of the ejection port right beside the rifle. For one, the case doesnt go flying out of reach. And two, it applies less uneven pressure on the back of the case.

The current rifle I'm having built is on a Kelby Atlas action which uses their TG mechanical ejector. Similar to the other mechanical ejectors shown in this thread. I think the absence of uneven force on the rear of the case will be a benefit to finding consistent accuracy.

Some benchrest shooters will also lighten their ejector springs or even remove the ejector completely.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Well I would hope your chamber isnt sloppy enough to allow much case movement. An ejector spring/pin doesn't align a case in the chamber, in fact it probably causes a slight 'misalignment' by applying force to only one side of the case. I always lighten my ejector springs to the point where they only apply enough force to lay the case out of the ejection port right beside the rifle. For one, the case doesnt go flying out of reach. And two, it applies less uneven pressure on the back of the case.

The current rifle I'm having built is on a Kelby Atlas action which uses their TG mechanical ejector. Similar to the other mechanical ejectors shown in this thread. I think the absence of uneven force on the rear of the case will be a benefit to finding consistent accuracy.

Many benchrest shooters will also lighten their ejector springs or even remove the ejector completely.

They lighten the springs only to not throw cases off the bench. It has nothing to do with alignment- once the case closes in the chamber even the stoutest spring doesnt affect the alignment. A mechanical ejector is just an easier way to tune how far your case goes by how fast you cycle the action

 

[SGK]

By "sloppy" I only mean to the extent of the shoulder setback. I can't remember the thread but I had once questioned bullet to lands alignment when we had 1-2 thou of 'slop' in headspace and also some in neck release dimension. I had suggested that the case, by virtue of those gaps, could not sit with the bullet aligned perfectly to the bore. Gravity would see the bullet pointing ever so slightly upwards. I was told then that the ejector spring was pushing the case forward, its shoulder snug against the chamber shoulder and so the alignment was achieved. But here there is no spring pushing forward.

 

[SGK]

This was the post/conversation that I was recalling:

#69

 

[mauser284]

I hate plunger ejectors but they are every place. I like to be able to control the brass with out having to dig them out of a signle shot action. That is easy to do with Mauser and Springfield ejector. You can toss it into the next field or have it just barely roll into your hand entirely up to the shooter!