Dasher Brass-Stay w/Lapua or New Norma?
- Thread starter DickE
- Start date
by comparison, in the last forty years I have never shot NORMA brass, in any caliber, that was as durable as LAPUA.
So, for me, it is LAPUA until the NORMA begins to supplant it in the record scores/groups.
So, for me, it is LAPUA until the NORMA begins to supplant it in the record scores/groups.
shoot4fun
Gold $$ Contributor
There is no such thing as "load and shoot" Norma 6 Dasher brass. Until the batch with correct sized head for the normal shell holder and until your rifle is chambered with the correct reamer for the longer neck then you still have to work the Norma brass. Lapua, from what I understand, has put out some 6BR brass lately that isn't up to their reputation, IE inconsistent neck thickness and problem, when blowing out to Dasher, of cracking shoulders. I've shot some of the new Norma and it wasn't bad but I still prefer the Lapua for now.
CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
I have two Stolle rifles in Dasher. One uses Lapua and the other I made for the Norma.
BOTH have to be fire formed. BOTH. The Norma stuff will NOT take a reasonable load first firing. After one firing it will be better but never as "good" as the Lapua. I have to keep it a solid 1/2 grain less than I normally do, accept slightly lower velocity and still border on blanking primers.
For some strange reason the Norma seems to flow the brass a bit. I reduced neck walls thickness to .0125". After a few shots it has to be done again. Strange to me and I can't figure it out.
You will need a different shell holder for the Norma as the rims are thicker. The normal #3-308 sized shell holder will NOT work. A #2 or the special one from Bullets.com works. Bit of a pain. Hear some rifles do not get over that larger rim and will not extract. Not been an issue for me.
You do know the Norma neck lengths are longer than what you get from Lapua. Those normally shoot at a 1.5" length+-. I shoot the Norma stuff at 1.556". It comes about 1.6" long.
Primer pockets are tight when new. In fact, so tight I have distorted some 450 lots of primers just seating them the first time. My K&N tools do not ream the bottom at all so they must be a tiny big deeper than Lapua also.
In general my opinion is the Norma is not worth the trouble. If you wanted factory Dasher brass to use out of the box, fine. Just remember to keep the loads low for first firing. Trim maybe, based on you chamber and watch neck thickness. The Lapua is oh so much user friendly after a successful fire forming.
Only about 3 firings from each of my 200 Norma brass pieces. No conclusion on how well the primer pockets hold up.
BOTH have to be fire formed. BOTH. The Norma stuff will NOT take a reasonable load first firing. After one firing it will be better but never as "good" as the Lapua. I have to keep it a solid 1/2 grain less than I normally do, accept slightly lower velocity and still border on blanking primers.
For some strange reason the Norma seems to flow the brass a bit. I reduced neck walls thickness to .0125". After a few shots it has to be done again. Strange to me and I can't figure it out.
You will need a different shell holder for the Norma as the rims are thicker. The normal #3-308 sized shell holder will NOT work. A #2 or the special one from Bullets.com works. Bit of a pain. Hear some rifles do not get over that larger rim and will not extract. Not been an issue for me.
You do know the Norma neck lengths are longer than what you get from Lapua. Those normally shoot at a 1.5" length+-. I shoot the Norma stuff at 1.556". It comes about 1.6" long.
Primer pockets are tight when new. In fact, so tight I have distorted some 450 lots of primers just seating them the first time. My K&N tools do not ream the bottom at all so they must be a tiny big deeper than Lapua also.
In general my opinion is the Norma is not worth the trouble. If you wanted factory Dasher brass to use out of the box, fine. Just remember to keep the loads low for first firing. Trim maybe, based on you chamber and watch neck thickness. The Lapua is oh so much user friendly after a successful fire forming.
Only about 3 firings from each of my 200 Norma brass pieces. No conclusion on how well the primer pockets hold up.
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swd
Silver $$ Contributor
I took 1 Norma Dasher case up to where the bolt got sticky, backed it down .2 and loaded it 9 times. Still holding a primer just fine. One of these days I'll continue the torture test and see how long it will last. Seems pretty darn tough so far. It's chambered with a Bullets.com PTG reamer with the throat taken out to .150". I don't have many rounds through it but it's shooting very well so far but I haven't done any chrono work with it yet so I can't report back on speed. I would say for for 600 yard F, PRS, varmints or anything shy of benchrest it's pretty much load and shoot. So far I'm very happy with it but ask me again in 6 months...
dmoran
Donovan Moran
@CaptainMal
Questions:
Would you expect 2 different brands of say 223 or 243 or 308 brass to have the same case capacity?
If not, why would you expect the Norma Dasher to hold the same as Lapua made?
If you loaded your Lapua made cases with 1/2 to 1 more grain of powder, what would happen to them?
To me, the above is what your doing with the Norma's and expecting them to react the same as Lapua made.
----------------------------------------
Pretty much Reloading 101; expect the case capacity to have variation between brands of brass and even different Lots of the same brass in all cartridges. As will the charge levels need to be adjusted to compensate for the capacity variances between different brands of cases. I myself would never expect equal velocity from equal charges between 2 different brands of brass in any caliber, and would expect the need to work up charge levels for each one independently.
As to the Norma pockets, myself and a constituent have stepped on few each hard repeatedly, and find the pockets to be remaining relatively tight, that can endure more then our own Lapua made's.
The additional rim thickness no doubt could be playing into the pockets longevity, that I mark up as a +plus! and well worth the cost of a couple shell holders to compliment the additional rim thickness.
The additional neck length to the Norma's I find to be a very positive gain, since the necks can be trimmed to optimally fit any chamber length.
Donovan
Questions:
Would you expect 2 different brands of say 223 or 243 or 308 brass to have the same case capacity?
If not, why would you expect the Norma Dasher to hold the same as Lapua made?
If you loaded your Lapua made cases with 1/2 to 1 more grain of powder, what would happen to them?
To me, the above is what your doing with the Norma's and expecting them to react the same as Lapua made.
----------------------------------------
Pretty much Reloading 101; expect the case capacity to have variation between brands of brass and even different Lots of the same brass in all cartridges. As will the charge levels need to be adjusted to compensate for the capacity variances between different brands of cases. I myself would never expect equal velocity from equal charges between 2 different brands of brass in any caliber, and would expect the need to work up charge levels for each one independently.
As to the Norma pockets, myself and a constituent have stepped on few each hard repeatedly, and find the pockets to be remaining relatively tight, that can endure more then our own Lapua made's.
The additional rim thickness no doubt could be playing into the pockets longevity, that I mark up as a +plus! and well worth the cost of a couple shell holders to compliment the additional rim thickness.
The additional neck length to the Norma's I find to be a very positive gain, since the necks can be trimmed to optimally fit any chamber length.
Donovan
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CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
All I was doing was explaining what I learned from using the Norma brass. No EXPECTATION intended - only the facts I learned. Did it to share my experiences with the OP so he can make a decision based on feedback from people.
Surprised I would be "attacked" or verbally criticized for spending my time and effort to be helpful.
As for capacity and/;or performance, I like to shoot 105's or 107's in Dasher with 30" bbl at somewhere around 3,010 to 3, 035 fps. I stop adding powder when I reach a level in that range and experiment with what that particular barrel likes. Will only do that if pressure is stable and fine under a variety of heat conditions. You know it's Florida here. All year it's Florida and that can be hot.
Anyhow, Lapua gives me a stable velocity for one gun with 33.5 gr. of Varget. For many rifles that would be too hot. I tried it in my other rifle and it also performed about the same. That means ... satisfactory using Lapua.
Norma brass will NOT reach that level of performance without being right on the edge of occasionally showing pressure signs. I am in the bottom end of that performance range and still not 100% sure I have the right load to date using the Norma brass. Right now I am at 33.0 gr. of Varget and am stopping there. In my Norma brass, with my particular chamber, just a couple tenths of a grain more results in spiked velocities up to 3,080 fps and serious pressure signs.
Should shoot even less than the 30.0 gr. load but then I cannot get much up over 3,000 fps.
This is what my experience has been. All I am doing is taking the time and making the effort to have the OP make a better decision. Each of us probably have different experiences. Those are mine. Please don't condemn me for having and sharing them.
Surprised I would be "attacked" or verbally criticized for spending my time and effort to be helpful.
As for capacity and/;or performance, I like to shoot 105's or 107's in Dasher with 30" bbl at somewhere around 3,010 to 3, 035 fps. I stop adding powder when I reach a level in that range and experiment with what that particular barrel likes. Will only do that if pressure is stable and fine under a variety of heat conditions. You know it's Florida here. All year it's Florida and that can be hot.
Anyhow, Lapua gives me a stable velocity for one gun with 33.5 gr. of Varget. For many rifles that would be too hot. I tried it in my other rifle and it also performed about the same. That means ... satisfactory using Lapua.
Norma brass will NOT reach that level of performance without being right on the edge of occasionally showing pressure signs. I am in the bottom end of that performance range and still not 100% sure I have the right load to date using the Norma brass. Right now I am at 33.0 gr. of Varget and am stopping there. In my Norma brass, with my particular chamber, just a couple tenths of a grain more results in spiked velocities up to 3,080 fps and serious pressure signs.
Should shoot even less than the 30.0 gr. load but then I cannot get much up over 3,000 fps.
This is what my experience has been. All I am doing is taking the time and making the effort to have the OP make a better decision. Each of us probably have different experiences. Those are mine. Please don't condemn me for having and sharing them.
Unfortunately my own personal testing has mirrored your findings, I run my Dasher at 3.100 fps in my Lapua brass and get 10+ firings, cant get near that with the Norma brass, same load same bullets and as I approach my accuracy node I get pressure signs like there's no tomorrow. That's my experience your's may vary.
Speed kills no doubt.
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Phil
Gold $$ Contributor
I'm one who wated and I know for now I won't change thanks all Larry
shoot4fun
Gold $$ Contributor
I am shooting 28" 7/5 twist, 36.5 grains Alliant 2000-MR (burn rate of H4350 but lower pressure and spherical). Powder fills just at, maybe a little farther, the line where shoulder and body meet.I developed this load for the IBS 1000 yard Nationals and it shot OK there. That barrel had right at 800 rounds on it then and was giving 3086. The new barrel is very, very close to that 3100 mark, I have no idea how long barrels are going to last (throat) but I do not I see no primer flattening, nothing close to cratering and case head expansion is no worse than I was seeing with 32.7 Varget and less than 2900. I shot that load our last local match and had no bolt click or any cycle issues at all. Only thing I've noticed is that the POI seems to move a little as the match wears on due to it not being as temp stable as Varget or H4350.
ASbobcat
Silver $$ Contributor
Have you tried resetting the web with a standard 308FL die? There shouldn't be a need for SB unless you have a tight chamber. I always specify minimum unsupported case head (gap between front of bolt head and back of barrel) and minimum radius at chamber entrance when having a new barrel reamed to avoid the need to do this.
shoot4fun
Gold $$ Contributor
The simple reason for using the SB die in my case is that is all the 308 Body Die I have.
ASbobcat
Silver $$ Contributor
Only reason I mention it is because my one experience with SB dies was not good. Sized the web way too small, unnecessarily overworking the brass. A setup for premature case head separation.
Standard 308 dies are a dime-a-dozen and might save you money in the long run.
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