Custom Vs Redding type S?

[TrxR]

I am getting geared up for F/TR using a .308 and was wondering if a custom F/L die from say Neil Jones is worth the extra over a Redding type S F/L die. If so what is required to be sent to Jones for a custom die. Is it a once fired brass or does it need fired more than once? What is the procedure? I will be getting a chamber reamer from pacific tool and gauge. ( more than likely his F/TR reamer).

Thanks

 

[TrxR]

Also if not the custom route would the Whidden dies be better than the Reddings?

 

[TrxR]

Nobody has any opinions on this?


Thanks

 

[Old Navy]

I have several Redding dies. I have found nothing to dislike about any of them. Later! Frank

 

[bigedp51]

I wonder if you dropped down one forum to the Competition Forum instead of the (general) Reloading forum you might get an answer. There is a chance that my and Bozo699 bad jokes might have driven everyone away in this forum. :

( I've been informed that Bozo699 tells some really bad jokes)

 

[bozo699]

I wonder if you dropped down one forum to the Competition Forum instead of the (general) Reloading forum you might get an answer. There is a chance that my and Bozo699 bad jokes might have driven everyone away in this forum. :

( I've been informed that Bozo699 tells some really bad jokes)

BigEd,
That is just one mans opinion and yes we tend to run all the good ones off LOL.

TrxR,
I feel of course the Jones die is better then a redding die but I have made a lot of good ammo with a redding and a Wilson seater. I think for br probably the Jones or other custom will be the way to go when your shooting both for score and group but in your sport I can't see where the advantage of maybe a few thou. better group would help you, I doubt you would see a difference on your score or maybe not enough to warrent the price difference, just a thought.
Wayne.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Also if not the custom route would the Whidden dies be better than the Reddings?

I go the custom route if I have something specific that needs fixing. Even if money was no object I would probably still start with a Redding die as its very easy to get bushes for the neck sizing.

+1 to Wayne's post

 

[Steve Blair]

TrxR,
I feel of course the Jones die is better then a redding die but I have made a lot of good ammo with a redding and a Wilson seater. I think for br probably the Jones or other custom will be the way to go when your shooting both for score and group but in your sport I can't see where the advantage of maybe a few thou. better group would help you, I doubt you would see a difference on your score or maybe not enough to warrent the price difference, just a thought.
Wayne.

[br]
Although I doubt you meant it, Wayne, that comes off as more than a little condescending. Accuracy in F-Class is critical and, several times, Redding dies have been inadequate to the task. The usual problem is that the die size is not a good match to the chamber. Sizing dies from Mark Spencer and Warner Tools have not only addressed my sizing issues, but produced sized cases with almost no runout. Even Wilson seaters are sometimes sloppy and I have a custom seater made. When you try to hit a ten inch circle at one thousand yards with twenty shots, everything counts. And, yes, it does make a difference in scores. Mid Range accuracy is even more demanding, the wind being less of a factor.

 

[BoydAllen]

One way to get around the die/chamber fit issue, is to buy the die before you order the reamer, size some well used brass, and order the reamer to fit the sized brass. That way you can have the fit you want with a factory die. I have done this, more than once. It works.

 

[bozo699]

TrxR,
I feel of course the Jones die is better then a redding die but I have made a lot of good ammo with a redding and a Wilson seater. I think for br probably the Jones or other custom will be the way to go when your shooting both for score and group but in your sport I can't see where the advantage of maybe a few thou. better group would help you, I doubt you would see a difference on your score or maybe not enough to warrent the price difference, just a thought.
Wayne.

[br]
Although I doubt you meant it, Wayne, that comes off as more than a little condescending. Accuracy in F-Class is critical and, several times, Redding dies have been inadequate to the task. The usual problem is that the die size is not a good match to the chamber. Sizing dies from Mark Spencer and Warner Tools have not only addressed my sizing issues, but produced sized cases with almost no runout. Even Wilson seaters are sometimes sloppy and I have a custom seater made. When you try to hit a ten inch circle at one thousand yards with twenty shots, everything counts. And, yes, it does make a difference in scores. Mid Range accuracy is even more demanding, the wind being less of a factor.

Steve,
I sure didn't mean to be condescending for sure! My hat is off to you guy's and I have only shot one f-class match in my life so I know very little about it but was posting on what I was told at the match by some of the shooters, they told me to worry way more about my wind reading skills then my loading practices, Steve I read your posts all the time and have a lot of respect for you so I apologize for my post I was sincere when I wrote it but may have been in left Field on the knowledge of it so I am sorry for that. I need every advantage I can get so the cost of custom dies are the least of my worries I wished I could pay for wind reading skills LOL. Thank you for clarifying Steve.
Wayne.

 

[TrxR]

Boyd: Thats an interesting Idea. Would it work to get some brass from another shooter and size it with the dies I want to use? Will PT&G do it this way? What about freebore ? Would I just let the reamer maker know what bullets I will be using? Are there any down side to doing it this way aver getting custom dies? I will be buying my own reamer anyways. One more question on doing it that way is how is the best way to know what busing to use? Could I measure the loaded rounds that I am getting the brass from? Or would I be better off seating a bullet that I will be using then subtracting .002 to .003 off it to account for spring back to get .001 to .002 tension?

Thanks

 

[TrxR]

Im also curious can the custom dies be made off of reamer prints or if they have the reamer in hand? Or do they really need 3x fired brass?

 

[Steve Blair]

One way to get around the die/chamber fit issue, is to buy the die before you order the reamer, size some well used brass, and order the reamer to fit the sized brass. That way you can have the fit you want with a factory die. I have done this, more than once. It works.

[br]
There are some other advantages to Spencer and Warner dies. They are both bushing dies but the neck is integral with the shoulder. This approach separates body sizing from shoulder sizing and ensures that the neck is fully sized to the shoulder. When the die is made well, TIR is between 0 and .0005". [br]
F-Class shooters must assemble large quantities of very accurate ammunition and anything that will help that effort is probably worth the cost. I took 300 rounds to the Berger SW LR Nationals in February and fired 245. I will take at least 550, for one rifle, to the Nationals and Worlds in Raton this year. Assembling that much ammunition while maintaining strict control is a PITA. There is just no realistic alternative. [br]
Wayne, no need to apologize, I know what you meant.

 

[TrxR]

There are some other advantages to Spencer and Warner dies. They are both bushing dies but the neck is integral with the shoulder. This approach separates body sizing from shoulder sizing and ensures that the neck is fully sized to the shoulder. When the die is made well, TIR is between 0 and .0005".

Sleepygator: Any experience with the Neil Jones dies? Are they the same as far as neck and shoulder go?

 

[GSPV]

The bottom line is that the better your die matches your chamber, the easier time you are going to have.

There are three ways to get there.

1. Blind luck.

2. A die that is made to fit your chamber.

3. A reamer that is cut to match off the shelf dies. Sometimes a little adjusting is necessary, but that's to be expected.

I've had good results from both 2 and 3. I've never had 1 work out.

Take that for what it's worth. It is just one guy's experience.

 

[Steve Blair]

Sleepygator: Any experience with the Neil Jones dies? Are they the same as far as neck and shoulder go?

[br]
I haven't used them but they do employ a combined neck-shoulder bushing. From everything I have read and heard, they make a good product.

 

[6BRinNZ]

One way to get around the die/chamber fit issue, is to buy the die before you order the reamer, size some well used brass, and order the reamer to fit the sized brass. That way you can have the fit you want with a factory die. I have done this, more than once. It works.

Hi Boyd - I'm curious about this approach. What I am getting at is it a valid approach if certain considerations are taken into account first?

I suspect for newbies and rookies matching a die to a reamer spec is the better way to go?

I get nervous about the brass characteristics getting in the way of the dimensions needed.

For example I know that annealed brass has an impact on the amount of shoulder bump needed and when sizing down from larger neck dimensions - say .004"+ the neck will have a tendency to oversize by at least .0005".
I'm not sure if similar changes occur in the base area as I tend to just look for initial expansion and then monitor with bolt lift.

TRXR - the custom dies that use the combined neck/shoulder sizing bush are a breath of fresh air as you can control the amount of bump without impacting the sizing at the base. IMO its a better approach to achieving the correct sizing dimensions and controlling runout vs a redding body die and separate neck sizer. The thing I would look for with this combination is how the neck/shoulder bush gets locked into place.
The Redding approach with respect to bump has one place for movement - where the die locking ring "locks" onto the press. The customs have two areas, where the die locking ring contacts the press and the lock ring that holds the neck/shoulder sizer in place.
When sizing large amounts of brass which is typical for FTR/FO you have two places to monitor that haven't worked loose (.001" movement isn't much).

 

[amamnn]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that Redding, and also Forster, will build a custom die for you. When I bought mine they were less expensive than some of the custom brands mentioned above and the promised delivery time was faster as well.

Some other observations based on use of these dies:

I like the Redding "S" type FL dies and also the Forster body bump neck dies for those few cartridges on which I use neck dies. The Forster bushings work in the Redding dies but not the other way round, due to the bevel on the Forster bushings.

 

[BoydAllen]

Having the experience of doing this perhaps a half dozen times, with good results, I can say that it works, and well. The reason that I specify well used brass it that you want brass that is about as work hardened as you will use the die to size will get, because as brass is work hardened through firing and FL sizing it develops more spring back, and the dimensions of brass out of a given die will increase slightly. By using worst case brass,we avoid the problem of having a FL die that will not adequately reduce the diameters of the bodies of cases. I know that this approach is new to most who read about it. I learned of it from a friend who had used that approach. The ultimate in economy comes when you work it all out for a tight neck chamber so that something like an ordinary, one piece FL die gives you .002 neck tension (for light bullet varmint calibers) with the expander ball and .003 without. This is not as tough as it sounds, particularly when you consider that there is a range of neck thickness and clearances that can be successfully used. One such project was for a friend's tight necked .223 varmint rifle. The ammo that his ordinary RCBS FL die produces is a paragon of straightness, and the rifle shot like a true benchrest rifle would be expected to when finished. I the first such project that I did, with the same fellow, we shared the cost of a .244 neck .222 reamer. I still have that rifle, and it shoots very well. Generally I will follow custom when it gives the best result, and may not if I come across something better. These days with the commonness of bushing FL dies the whole thing is a lot easier to make work.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Thanks Boyd - food for thought.