Curing bullet runout in your cartridges.

[mikecr]

Runout comes from more than necks, like body and seating.
I agree that that true FL dies(which are not body-bushing dies) introduce low runout -provided they're fitted to fire formed cases, and minimally size. Otherwise the brass will give you runout while springing back with thickness variance. Doesn't matter how straight a die is here, or about body support, if sizing a lot.
But I would not ever FL size necks. So if I went this route, the FL die would be modified for partial neck sizing(without a bushing).

Then again, I like bushings, and adjusting neck sizing length(tension). I haven't had an issue with runout from them. So I'll stay that route.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

If one has a straight chamber, the fired brass will be straight. When the neck of that straight brass enters the tapered bottom portion of the floating bushing, it will be centered. Also, the brass forces the bushing up a few thousandths to the cap which is flat on the bottom resulting in low runout. I check my loads for runout and this method WORKS. If you doubt this, then give it a try. Good shooting....James

Try what? A bushing die? All I use is bushing dies. I do not bother to check runout anymore. But you are going to get .001-.002 with a bushing die. Neck brass is not going to size equally around its circumference. Thats why we create run out necking up and down. All I have left to say is people need to test this stuff and if its not showing up on target theres plenty of things that do that need fussing over.

 

[Northridge]

I would agree with previous comments it is my finding that people invest to much concern into run out on ammo and its affect on paper. If your producing ammo with less than .003ths run out your doing pretty well, find something else to fret over.

Shawn Williams

 

[Tim Singleton]

So your chamber is ok to run out .003 or does it matter?

 

[jamesdmock]

If you are using a bushing die where the bushing floats your going to get runout. What is to ensure that the bushing will center on the neck and size it equally?

Alex,
You have a reputation for being a great gunsmith, and I am sure that it is well deserved. Records held by men who shot rifles that you have built show that you do excellent work.

However, I would advise you to not become too dogmatic with opinions about everything concerning accuracy.There are methods that work just as well as yours and for you to be dismissive of others is wrong in my opinion.

I am not a gunsmith but I have been a competitive shooter for a long time and have had the privilege of knowing (and interviewing) many of the icons of Benchrest shooting. It seems that when I present an idea given to me by those giants of the sport or from my own experience, you are quick to dismiss it. An example of this is when I stated that I straightened ammo that showed small amounts of runout, you said that it was detrimental to accuracy. After it was pointed out that men like Lester Bruno (2nd to Tony Boyer in HOF points) and Bill Goad (9 HOF points and several national records) straightened their rounds, you indicated that winning trophies does not prove anything. I think that you believe that you are the only person who conducts tests to validate or disprove their ideas. You are not.

Recently when I passed along some tips that I got from Mr. Ferris Pindell about loading straight ammunition, you made a special effort to contradict my statement about a floating bushing reducing runout (your contention is that it will increase runout). You went on to imply that rounds with runout outshot those that did not show any. You have a right to believe whatever you wish, and test same. However, the rest of the shooting community has the same right.

Alex. you have some great ideas, but you do not have a monopoly on methods to improve accuracy. Let me add that I was very hesitant to write this, but this is about the 4th time in a row that you completely dismissed any idea that I presented as being wrong. I wish you well and good shooting....James Mock

 

[KenOath]

Not going against what others believe to be true or what works for them, I’ve stated this before that if you are shooting a 6mm of some sort for example, the bullet diameter is .243 and the freebore of your chamber is .2435 or even .2440 wouldn’t your run out be no greater than .0005”to .001” once bullet has been chambered?

Cheers Rushty

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Alex,
You have a reputation for being a great gunsmith, and I am sure that it is well deserved. Records held by men who shot rifles that you have built show that you do excellent work.

However, I would advise you to not become too dogmatic with opinions about everything concerning accuracy.There are methods that work just as well as yours and for you to be dismissive of others is wrong in my opinion.

I am not a gunsmith but I have been a competitive shooter for a long time and have had the privilege of knowing (and interviewing) many of the icons of Benchrest shooting. It seems that when I present an idea given to me by those giants of the sport or from my own experience, you are quick to dismiss it. An example of this is when I stated that I straightened ammo that showed small amounts of runout, you said that it was detrimental to accuracy. After it was pointed out that men like Lester Bruno (2nd to Tony Boyer in HOF points) and Bill Goad (9 HOF points and several national records) straightened their rounds, you indicated that winning trophies does not prove anything. I think that you believe that you are the only person who conducts tests to validate or disprove their ideas. You are not.

Recently when I passed along some tips that I got from Mr. Ferris Pindell about loading straight ammunition, you made a special effort to contradict my statement about a floating bushing reducing runout (your contention is that it will increase runout). You went on to imply that rounds with runout outshot those that did not show any. You have a right to believe whatever you wish, and test same. However, the rest of the shooting community has the same right.

Alex. you have some great ideas, but you do not have a monopoly on methods to improve accuracy. Let me add that I was very hesitant to write this, but this is about the 4th time in a row that you completely dismissed any idea that I presented as being wrong. I wish you well and good shooting....James Mock

James, well written. And I do believe your correct in pointing it out. I am biased when it comes to the runout thing. I dont mention it because I dont think its very humble when guys constantly remind everyone of wins or records, but I do hold 1000 yard agg records (Williamsport hg 6 and 10 match). So I can also shoot, and I have done a lot of testing. I dont form opinions on things without my own personal testing. I know personally I can get burnt out at the reloading bench, so I like to do what matters and not what doesnt. So I just want guys to test the runout thing in their rifles before spending the time and money to chase something that may not help them. My advise is always 100% uninfluenced and free, and its also free to ignore.

 

[6MMsteve]

Run out is a lot like that darn seating force thingy, it only matters if it matters. Everyone worries about perfect run out, perfect seating force, how pretty their brass is, and how many coats of clear they have on their stock. Give me an ugly stick that shoots any day! Worry about powder, seating depth and neck tension. I say if you don't have run out anywhere on the sized cases, you're not going to see it on target just because your seating caused a little. This is especially true, and exaggerated if the bullet has a distinct pressure ring.


Tom[/QUOTE I like ugly guns

 

[6MMsteve]

lol

 

[mikecr]

if you are shooting a 6mm of some sort for example, the bullet diameter is .243 and the freebore of your chamber is .2435 or even .2440 wouldn’t your run out be no greater than .0005”to .001” once bullet has been chambered?

If the chambered round is forced into straight then you've introduced chambered tensions.
While many believe low runout efforts are to center a bullet's pointing down the bore, the bullets are not really centering until freely released. So high runout is not showing up on paper with that.
But high runout does show up where you've run out of clearances for it.

A chamber tension is similar to any other action that affects system vibration. Press your action tang, or the side of your chamber, mid-group, and see what that does to you.
So imagine what different chamber tensions, coming and going, might do to you.

If you open clearances to remove chambered tensions, the gun might shoot better than it would otherwise -with crooked ammo. This, even while bigger clearances can be a detriment to centering of a bullet's pointing.

Two circles:
Tight chamber, lower sizing, straight ammo, low chambered tension.
Loose chamber, higher sizing, crooked ammo, but low chambered tension.
Both shoot good, one circle is intolerant to high runout.

 

[dmoran]

Several years back, did some run-out testing in 243-Ackley's at 500yds. Don't have the results any more but formed the opinion that run-out mattered less when seating close and/or in the lands.
I check for run-out often and use it in part to judge my own skills as a reloader to how well I can make my ammo, setup dies, and maintenance my equipment. By and for these reason's run-out matters to me.
Donovan

 

[butchlambert]

James, well written. And I do believe your correct in pointing it out. I am biased when it comes to the runout thing. I dont mention it because I dont think its very humble when guys constantly remind everyone of wins or records, but I do hold 1000 yard agg records (Williamsport hg 6 and 10 match). So I can also shoot, and I have done a lot of testing. I dont form opinions on things without my own personal testing. I know personally I can get burnt out at the reloading bench, so I like to do what matters and not what doesnt. So I just want guys to test the runout thing in their rifles before spending the time and money to chase something that may not help them. My advise is always 100% uninfluenced and free, and its also free to ignore.

Alex, most don't have a clue how much .001" happens to be. A brown "gray" from my head measures .005". I think that more trigger time is more valuable than a couple thousandths runout. Not saying that you shouldn't pay attention to it.
Rushty, my 6mm bullets measure .2433.

 

[T-shooter]

I don't know if runout really hurts accuracy that much but it's one less variable to be concerned with. Less may not help but can't hurt and is good for peace of mind. I like to keep the runout at or below .002" measured as in the picture, half way from the end of the bearing surface to the tip. I use the others for warm up, fouling, or just trigger time.

 

[pacificman]

I like to have as little run-out as possible....This has been suggested by just about everyone who strive for accuracy.
I also feel that when I have done everything I can to make my cartridges as accurate as I can I will actually shoot
better as it gives me a bit more confidence knowing I have done just about everything to make perfect reloads.
I have tested this with a 22-250 that shows groups a bit tighter at longer ranges with less run-out. I do however
have a couple of rifles that seem to shoot with higher amount of run-out. Just my experiences here.

 

[BoydAllen]

Based on considerable experimentation I would have to say that one piece FL dies properly dimensioned so that they provide the correct neck sizing for neck turned cases without the use of an expander, produce the straightest brass. Having said that, some time back when I told a nationally known top level shooter/gunsmith what my runout was using a bushing die, he told me that he would be upset with that number if it was his, but he could not prove that it was a problem on the target. I have been told that as long as loaded ammo is under .002 for TIR that there will be no consequences on the target. I have never seen any indication that that was incorrect, but then I do not have a good shooting tunnel to test in. I can ask a friend who does. I think that the the thicker the neck, the more the neck tension, the more bullet shank is in the neck, particularly without a large pressure ring the greater the potential effect of minor differences in concentricity.

Back in the day I had the opportunity to test a concentricity gauge that was basically a modified arrow straightener (aluminum arrows) and in the course of my experiments determined that straightening thin necked PPC rounds loaded with bullets that had a sizable pressure ring was relatively easy and did not seem to involve bending case necks. On the other hand when I tried the same thing on factory .220 Swift loads it was a whole other thing. Lots of force was required, and my impression was that cases had to be bent. Later when I compared the accuracy of that ammunition with some from the same lot that had not been straightened I saw no difference in accuracy. It would have been fun to be able to report that there was, but that was not the case.

 

[JRS]

Based on considerable experimentation I would have to say that one piece FL dies properly dimensioned so that they provide the correct neck sizing for neck turned cases without the use of an expander, produce the straightest brass. Having said that, some time back when I told a nationally known top level shooter/gunsmith what my runout was using a bushing die, he told me that he would be upset with that number if it was his, but he could not prove that it was a problem on the target. I have been told that as long as loaded ammo is under .002 for TIR that there will be no consequences on the target. I have never seen any indication that that was incorrect, but then I do not have a good shooting tunnel to test in. I can ask a friend who does. I think that the the thicker the neck, the more the neck tension, the more bullet shank is in the neck, particularly without a large pressure ring the greater the potential effect of minor differences in concentricity.

Back in the day I had the opportunity to test a concentricity gauge that was basically a modified arrow straightener (aluminum arrows) and in the course of my experiments determined that straightening thin necked PPC rounds loaded with bullets that had a sizable pressure ring was relatively easy and did not seem to involve bending case necks. On the other hand when I tried the same thing on factory .220 Swift loads it was a whole other thing. Lots of force was required, and my impression was that cases had to be bent. Later when I compared the accuracy of that ammunition with some from the same lot that had not been straightened I saw no difference in accuracy. It would have been fun to be able to report that there was, but that was not the case.

Those arrow straighteners are quite a handy tool to use on your bent cleaning rod, also

 

[msinc]

Could someone explain what bullet runout is?

Sure...that happens when you don't own a Bonanza Co-Ax press....so you have to go buy one, actually two so you can have one set for small case heads and the other for large. Then spend another handfull of cabbage and get L.E. Wilson straight line seater dies and just tell everyone you cured it with the Co-Ax!!!!

 

[JRS]

Sure...that happens when you don't own a Bonanza Co-Ax press....so you have to go buy one, actually two so you can have one set for small case heads and the other for large. Then spend another handfull of cabbage and get L.E. Wilson straight line seater dies and just tell everyone you cured it with the Co-Ax!!!!

 

[BoydAllen]

Back in the day, I loaned a concentricity gauge to a fellow who was using a RCBS FL die to size cases with unturned necks using the expander ball. Boy was that ever a wake up call for him. Years later, I ordered a tight neck .223 reamer for a friend so that it worked perfectly with brass that had been turned, minimally sizing the body and giving him the neck tension that he wanted without the expander. He used it to chamber a good Shilen barrel. The brass and ammo was very straight, and the rifle shot well enough that I seriously thought that it would have made a decent showing in a benchrest match. More recently I discovered that Hornady's cheapest 6PPC FL die, not the bushing version but the one piece one, has a neck ID of .258 and that cases (for my .262 neck chamber) sized with it come out with end of neck runout that is about a third of a thousandth or better. (The seating die that came with it seats bullets with twice the runout of my Wilson seater.)

 

[T-shooter]

Could someone explain what bullet runout is?