Cure some ignorance won't you?

[HolyMeekrob]

Three questions: What exactly does it mean for an action to be 'out of time', what is the purpose of sleeving a bolt, and how do these two affect accuracy?

I ask because if they're significant I may consider having such things corrected on my factory action.

 

[butchlambert]

If your bolt timing is off you could have extraction problems. You sleeve a bolt to tighten the bolt in the receiver raceways.
Butch

 

[jonbearman]

out of time means I believe the position of the bolt head when the bolt is in the down position affecting the angle of the contact of the bolt to the reciever. Sleeving is adding a steel tube fitted precisly to your bolt and then they ream the reciever to fit the bigger sleeve on the bolt.That way you tighten up the bolt diameter to the reciever for a tight fit and better face contact alignment of the bolt lugs to the reciever lug and they true up the bolt lugs and lap them to the now tightened dimensions turning your stock remmy into a benchrest capable action.One other thing they do is correct the face of the reciever and true up the threads by rethreading the reciever slightly oversize ,about.010 over and threading the barrel to match the corrected thread size.I myself wouldnt have them touch the threads and thread the new barrel to mate with the factory thread.I hope I helped.

 

[butchlambert]

jon is about right, but doing all this will not increase the value and have you in it at about custom receiver price.
Butch

 

[DCRYDER]

The only time you would need a bolt retimed is if you were having trouble with extraction. Have you ever noticed the banged up part of the bolt handle that is the upward/forward corner where it is soldered onto the bolt body? This is the extraction cam (or at least half of the extraction cam) that hits the angled part of the reciever at the top of bolt lift. This is the primary extraction.

If you push the bolt forward, push the bolt handle down while pulling the trigger (dropping firing pin), put your thumb behind the bolt, push and pull the bolt back and forth, feel the slop. The amount of slop you see is how much primary extraction you are losing due to improper timing. The handle needs to be remove and moved forward to reduce this clearance to be correct. BUT like i said if you're not having extraction problems, this is not needed.

As far as bolt sleeving goes, this should only be done to an action that has already been completely trued, and is not necessarily needed then. It does minimize clearance between bolt and raceway, but if your action has not been trued then clearance is a good thing.

How do these affect accuracy??? IMO they are way down on the list. 1st you need a good barrel, 2nd you need a good smith, 3rd you need good bedding, 4th you need a good scope, 5th you need good rings, 6th you need a good stock, 7th you need a good trigger, 8th you need a good firing pin assembly.......

I should have put good dies and good load development pretty high on that list too.

 

[HolyMeekrob]

No, the receiver hasn't been trued, but I intend on having it done. At this point it's a matter of finding a smith that performs all of the operations I'd like to have done. I was wondering if bolt sleeving was one such operation.
I've seen that Stan Ware appears to retime the bolt anyway after truing the receiver. He also sleeves. I suppose I'll get in touch with him to ask what else he does in a blueprinting operation.

 

[jonbearman]

I was just explaining and I dont believe any stock action is worth pouring a ton of money into.I also believe alot of money hungry gunsmiths(unscrupulous) take advantage of new shooters pushing alot of this on them to basically help them lighten their wallets.I agree with dcryder on his methodology.He hit the nail on the head and straightened me out on this bolt timing issue.I just dont see how this timing issue hurts accuracy.I want more of an explanation on this topic.I need to learn.LOL I didnt mean to hijack the original post.

 

[jonbearman]

Let us know how it works out for you ,when it is done.I just wouldnt sleeve and evrything unless he feels it is absolutely necessary.If you buy a trigger ,get the shilen.I have one and it is super crisp and priced to be affordable.

 

[HolyMeekrob]

Actually I tinkered with the factory trigger (700) and I've never messed with a precision trigger, but, aside from the slight lateral wiggle I don't know how it could be improved. It breaks clean at maybe a pound (I guess, never measured it, it was 3lbs before I messed with it), has no over travel and is still safe.
Honestly if people replace these factory triggers, the aftermarket ones must be somethin special.
As to the money I'd spend on it, I don't want to dump a lot into it, I'd rather spend the money on a quality barrel and smithing job. Based on the quotes I've gotten so far I'd like to stay in the 200 area. But if the process isn't that much more why not set up the action to function that much more cleanly? I'll look into who does it and how much they want to do it and then make the decision.
While I'm thinking about it, what do you guys think about the value of messing with the bolt nose? I've seen that's rather variable, some smiths true it, some don't.

 

[butchlambert]

Trying to say this in a nice way. I wouldn't be around you with your trigger. It is unsafe. Buy a Shilen trigger. Somebodies life is worth more than a trigger.
Butch

 

[fdshuster]

I used to believe in having my Remington 700 trigger's rebuilt by a professional, and for the most part, they have all been very good. But, now when they go bad I replace them with a Jewell and always have a spare Jewell trigger standing by. I'm sure Shilen's and others are also very high quality and an improvement over the factory trigger, any make.

 

[JabaliHunter]

butchlambert & fdshuster

 

[DCRYDER]

I don't think bolt timing has ANYTHING to do with accuracy, but sleeving the bolt I think could help a little.

Say your bolt diameter is .695" and your raceway is .703", thats .008" total clearance. When bolt is in battery the locking lugs are at the 12 and 6 oclock positions. The trigger sear engaging the cocking piece pshes the rear of the bolt to the top of the raceway, so it is now .004" above the centerline of the bore. Now the 12 oclock locking lug cannot be making contact. When trigger is squeezed and sear lets go the bolt will drop to the bottom of raceway, now its .004" below centerline and the 6 oclock lug cannot be making contact. Then with 60,000+ psi pushing back on the case both lugs can finally touch evenly, but now the bullet is already 2/3 the way down the barrel.

The slop in the front can be taken out by making the counterbore for the boltnose in the rear of the chamber with minimal clearance. I don't really like this because I don't like the bolt and barrel to touch, may cause problems with harmonics. But if your boltface is putting side pressure on your cartridge when chambered this is not good either. When you sleeve the front of the bolt, right behind the locking lugs, these variables can be controlled the right way.

Are these steps necessary for a super accurate varmint/hunting/informal benchrest rifle where a .3 moa is acceptable??? NO... Are these necessary for a fullblown competition rifle where .2" agg is crucial??? Absolutely...

Meekrob, you don't know how the 700 can be improved??? I believe you when you say you have never messed with a precision trigger. AND you really do need to get a scale. That 1lb trigger is probably closer to 2lbs. A jewell can easily and safely go to just a couple of ounces if you want. No offense to you, because i've been there and done that myself. After shooting a 2oz Jewell, you will see what we mean.

 

[fdshuster]

And, no offense meant to anyone, but that "tinkering" with a Remington factory trigger may give at least some validity to the recent MSNBC report on the unintentional firings, a factor that they failed to mention. Even my gunsmith who is highly skilled on trigger repairs and tuning can sometimes have difficulty getting it just right.

 

[HolyMeekrob]

Well thanks for the vote of confidence everybody, but I wouldn't have the trigger set the way it is if it was dangerous.
I've wiggled/pulled/slammed/dropped/swung/kicked/thrown/run over/shot into orbit, done everything I can to abuse it without breaking it and set it off with or without the safety engaged. It has been set this way for years now and has never once gone off for any reason except when someone has the safety off and pulls the trigger with the intent to drop the pin.
Have a little faith.

 

[fdshuster]

"rob": You're a lot more skilled with trigger work than I am, so congratulations. But, regarding the MSNBC "report" for every one of you, there are probably dozens who have no idea what they are doing. I envy your abilities.

 

[butchlambert]

fdshuster, I worry about him. He evidently doesn't know what he is dealing with.
Butch

 

[HolyMeekrob]

Believe what you wish, but just as there are many unsafe settings, there are also safe settings. It's not as though I attempted to tune it to the sensitivity of a match trigger, and I must say, the proof is in the pudding: Five years of use and testing with never so much as a whisper of a malfunction.
But back to the original question: The necessity of truing the bolt nose.

 

[butchlambert]

Be ready to spend $500-$800 to do the job right or forget about the receiver and buy a quality barrel, an aftermarket trigger, find yourself a reputable smith, and bed this in a good stock.
$200 won't buy a decent barrel blank.
Butch

 

[HolyMeekrob]

Oh, no no, by 'in the 200 range' I mean solely for blueprinting for the action. I expect the whole job will cost about 700.