I was doing a bit of reading about cryogenically treating of barrels at -300F in liquid N for about 3 days or so. Supposed to tighten groups and prolong barrel life. Has anyone tried this, does it work?
Cryogenics
- Thread starter TomSawyerNW
- Start date
I have done no extensive testing, but years ago a company called Black Star offered barrels that were cryo-ed. It is my understanding that they took Lothar-Walther barrels and cryo-treated them. The barrels were expensive {stainless fluted and cryo-ed for around $500 IIRC} and I don't think they did too well as they went out of business years ago. I lucked on to one on an auction site for like $75.00 and it does shoot great. It does not shoot any better than the other LW barrels I have used since and there is no difference in how little or how much it copper fouls.
Commenting on one is no where near being in a position to dispute for or against. But, I would think that if it really made a significant discernible difference to the good every barrel maker out there would be doing it and they of course are not. I cant even remember the last time I heard talk of it since the early 2000's. Bottom line, I haven't seen, heard or experienced any reason to pay extra for it and you can believe I need all the help I can get!!!
Commenting on one is no where near being in a position to dispute for or against. But, I would think that if it really made a significant discernible difference to the good every barrel maker out there would be doing it and they of course are not. I cant even remember the last time I heard talk of it since the early 2000's. Bottom line, I haven't seen, heard or experienced any reason to pay extra for it and you can believe I need all the help I can get!!!
dcali
Bullet Maker
It comes in and out of fashion every now and then. I’m no expert, but everything I’ve read about cryo says that at best it improves tool wear on things like high speed steel, and can improve machinability of some steels.
There isn’t any mechanism known to me that would cause cryo treating to improve barrel life. Erosion is a complex process of heat changing the barrel material’s phase and washing it away by melting it. I’m not sure how cryo treating would impact that.
There isn’t any mechanism known to me that would cause cryo treating to improve barrel life. Erosion is a complex process of heat changing the barrel material’s phase and washing it away by melting it. I’m not sure how cryo treating would impact that.
NorCalMikie
Gold $$ Contributor
Thanks, everyone. I was also thinking it was a stretch that it cryo worked. Otherwise, I'd see barrel manufacturers talk about it more. (I also need every edge I can get!)
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Deathstar, Blackstar, barrels were electro polished inside, but not cryo'ed. Tomato stakes. Back in about 1996 Blackstar sent their factory shooter to our match in Houston with his big rig and was going to show us how to shoot. After the first day he was so far in last place that he went home with his tail between his legs. Didn't show up on Sunday. Ask Jackie Schmidt, he won one and couldn't give it away.
Back to cryo. 300deg ain't true cryo, but the deeper temps and methods never played out. I will say that they do machine better only. They do not shoot better or last longer.
Back to cryo. 300deg ain't true cryo, but the deeper temps and methods never played out. I will say that they do machine better only. They do not shoot better or last longer.
I have been told by 2 very well known barrel makers that, "416 Stainless cannot be stress relieved by cryo- treatment." I'll take their word for it.
So Mr. Lambert I have to ask, since you have this chronic stiffy for LW barrels in general....exactly how many reamers did they cost you or your buddies???? Please don't change at all. I did get the paper work with the one I have and it says it was cryo-ed. It is my understanding that the electro-polish thing was done to "taper" the bore so the last inches were a few tenths smaller in diameter. If I remember right that was done to the "Accumax II" barrels{but not all of their barrels??}
Personally, I think it is all a load of B.S. and I don't believe any of it accomplishes anything. But, the one Black Star and the one LW barrel I have are among the most accurate {group wise} I own, so no, they {at least my two} are not "tomato stakes".
One interesting fact about Black Star, many people say they only made button rifled barrels and that all of them came from LW...not true, some were in fact cut rifled early on and were not LW barrels.
carlsbad
Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.
I can't find any reference to cryo on Krieger's website. Where do you get your information?
That said, I like Krieger barrels and use a lot of them, but you don't have to have a physics degree to run a barrel company.
--Jerry
Maybe, as has already been stated, it makes them easier to machine. I was referring to stress relieving.
By the way, Krieger was not one of the well known barrel makers that I asked.
The two barrel makers, that I asked, heat treat after machining.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Just because cryo does not relieve stress does not mean that it is not useful. If you do some research about 416 steel you will find that it is a martensitic steel that typically has some residual unconverted austinite in it. Cryo converts the austinite making the steel more consistent in hardness, which is better for the drilling process. Years ago I spoke with Krieger about cryo and he told me that the improvement that it gave him in his drilling was worth the time and expense. Cryo has been used for all sorts of things, but our best evidence is that it takes heat to stress relieve barrel stainless. Doug Shilen once spent a lot of time and money on this question, and that was his conclusion. For those of you that are interested in really technical stuff, there is a way to "look" at residual stress in steel. https://www.google.com/search?q=x-r...l+stress&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1
I love it now it's getting interesting keep up the good work.
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
I think the answer to your statement is: Who uses them in competition and who wins with them? mising, when you chamber a couple and they shoot $hitty, why buy another. I didn't ruin a reamer as I knew to use speed and feed chambering them. You might call Pete Pieper, Precision Barrel Work, and ask him about them. Pete did a great deal of them for Deathstar for the magazine writers and their customers.
I'm very happy that you lucked out and had a couple match winners.
Another other questions mising?
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Hey Jim, call them and ask. Originally to help them to machine better, but may not be doing it anymore.
This is sad not one test done yourself but all quote something what somebody else said. Best test them and see if there is a difference, I did ...... After some short range guys did their test with rail guns and how it stopped the barrel walking as it heated up. That does make them shoot better. ...jim
It's hard to tell from your post whether or not you addressing one person or everyone who posted to this thread, so if it's all of us I will say not "all"....I did not "quote what someone else said".....I have a barrel that was cryo-ed, I threaded, chambered and shot it and while it is an excellent shooting barrel I can find no difference or reason to have it done to other barrels. Not saying don't do it, not calling any barrels bad, if you believe or feel like it works than of course do it, it's just not for me and if asked by my customers I don't recommend it. If you find it "sad" that no one has tested it properly and to suit you then maybe you should do some testing. I am not being facetious here, most of the guys on this forum, I am sure, would like to see test results. In fact, we like test results about anything!!!
Edit: I lied when I said I have two LW barrels...I have a Larue OBR that has a LW barrel installed. Endless apologies, a thousand pardons please. It, like the others shoots fantastic, but again, no better than anything else. When you look at the simple math regarding reamers it doesn't make sense to buy another one. I get about 30-40 chambers out of the rest of the worlds barrels per reamer...I get about 5 if I am lucky with a LW barrel. Given this kind of wear and difficulty they would really have to stand out much more than they do for me to continue. I think it's fair to say that cryo treatment didn't help cutting the chamber in my Black Star either.
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I never had any of those barrels so I can not make a comment either way with them, but with Brux was the main one I tested the most found it does stop the walking as the heat up. They clean easier, why I don't have a clue. To me the hold point of impact is a real gain at long range especially in heavy where you can run 20 shots down there in a short period of time. Don't expect it to make a hummer out of one, any small gain makes it worth it...... jim
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