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Crap components to good loads

Wolfdog91

Silver $$ Contributor
So, I have a weird question that I've been mulling over for a while now. And I'm not a competition shooter or super advanced reloader by any means lol , I'm just a guy who likes to experiment and tinker and reloading a a good medium for that for me .

Anyhow in watching and listing to guys like Eric Cortina , Jack Neary , FClass John , Bryan Litz and the like , the whole deal of making reloading " easy" by buying quality components is just common sense. Berger+ laupa+ Vitavoirri powder = easy reloading. Everything is made to such high quality and standards they just plain work.Makes perfect sense .

Currently trying to do that myself instead of buy the cheapest whatever I can like I used to. Time and cost has just made it cheaper for me to buy stuff that works instead of experiment (which I enjoy a bit more if I can do it cheaply)

But I'm just curious though have any of y'all ,just for the sake of doing it , ever went and got the cheapest brass ,bullets powder ect and said " I'm going to make a decent load out of this"? And if so what did you learn ? Other then it's easier to just get better stuff lol. Like was their anything you learned from messing with junk and making it work that helped you with better quality stuff ? Like idk did you have to be more careful with brass prep or did you find with crap powder one type of prime worked better then another and so on ?

I ask because with a lot of stuff I've done like welding I started out or just had to make do with junk for a long time and doing that made me learn a lot of stuff, then when I got a hold of good quality gear it was like I was running circles around people ( welding with a little 110 flux core machine for two years making it work then going to collage for weling and getting my hands on an actual nice machine being an example). Figured someone may have had the same experience with reloading.

Anyway sorry if this is kinda a dumb thing to ask ,just (as usual) curious as hell :D
 
I don't consider Sierra, Nosler or Hornaday bullets, i.e., standard components, junk.

I don't consider virgin Rem, Win, Hornady, or Federal brass junk. With that said, I don't buy so called "once fired" brass nor do I use range brass. Not saying that it's junk but I like to start with virgin brass that is carefully and uniformly prepped by me.

I'm not a benchrest or long range "F" class shooter but I do try to load precise ammunition for precision varmint and predator hunting. With a quality rifle and scope, I'm able to develop consistent reloads in the 1/2 moa range with standard components which meets my needs.

Of course, if you can obtain and afford the top-of-the-line components by all means do so. But regardless of the components used, attention of detail and using sound procedures in reloading is just as important as the components selected.

However, after many years of shooting, hunting, and reloading, I've discovered, within reason, the most significant factor affecting my ability to shoot precisely is me!
 
I purchased a large amount of Sierra .204 39 Bk, PULLS w/cannelure. Saved a bunch of money than, more since they are no production currently. Shoot well under moa from a factory TC barrel, great fun on pd. Save money where when you can, food and energy is going to get much more expensive.
 
I have been considering the same thing. I am like you in the sense that I am not a expert nor competetive shooter. I just want good loads for practice and hunting.
My 308 shoots great with a load I developed using Winchester brass, varget, 150 nosler balistic tips, cci pimers.

I have a pile of lc match brass, a few thousand s&b primers I bought for $19.99 per thousand ( I should have spent till it hurt rather than just picking up a few boxes LOL) and TAC powder and 150 speer boat tails. I am tempted to try to work up a load using just the cheap stuff. I have a feeling I can get good results out of that list of cheap stuff.

Another thing to point out: When Lapua cases were just starting to become common a guy told me that if you take Winchester cases and check capacity and weight amd check runnout you will toss a certain percentage, and the lapua brass doesn’t seem quite as expensive, then you find you will get more reloads out of th lapua brass as well, making it closer yet.
 
I think the first thing to do is identify what 'a good load' means.

Even if it were to be 5 shots under an 1 inch at 100 yards, you would need to use reasonable quality components which mainly means the barrel and the bullets. You'd want a good quality barrel that has enough diameter so it doesn't rapidly shift POI as it heats and chambered by a good gunsmith.
The bullet probably needs to be either 'match' or 'varminter' - although many hunting bullets can be very accurate. What won't work are 'bulk' bullets.
Any of the brand name primers will do fine.
Any of the brand name powders that are suited to the length of the barrel, caliber and weight will do fine.
Any commercial brass will do fine.

As the meaning of 'a good group' gets less than 1 inch at 100 yards, it'll become more important on which brass is used. As the 'good group' gets to be less than 1/2 inch at 100 yards, it get's significantly more involved.
 
Per the thread title, it's important to note that there's "crap"...and then there's "CRAP".

You might be able to come up with a halfway decent load using "crap"...that is, if your definition of "crap" doesn't really mean "CRAP", but maybe just not the absolute best and most expensive reloading components available to mankind. Certainly there has to be perspective to it. Other people people might call the quality of that same stuff "decent", or "OK", or "modest", or "reasonable". Regardless, there's no secret sauce necessary for working up a load with such components. A standard load development workup will do it if it can be done, meaning if the components are decent or reasonable enough to allow it, even if perhaps not the very best and most expensive available. If something really isn't going to cut it, you'll figure it out fairly quickly during the process.

Attempting to work up a decent load using components that are well and truly "CRAP" is likely to be an exercise in frustration.

The bottom line is that you have to know your crap; i.e. become a "crap expert" of sorts, kind of a professional turd burglar. Then you'll know...is it "crap"? Or is it really "CRAP"? ;)
 
I tried it years ago with Noslers Custom Comp bullets when they were cheap cheap and cheaper brass.

I wanted a cheap available option to practice with where id change out say a 105gr Berger for a 105g CC or a 190gr CC instead of a 200gr Hybrid. Wasn't the worst idea I ever came up with I just prefer to practice with what I use in a comp
 
Depends on application... crap or inexpensive components can shoot well...not for serious competition, but field shooting, hunting, or plinking fun. I used cheap factory 2nds 200 gr hotcore Speer in 338 to kill lots of deer ...save quality rds for group shooting. Used straighten used arrows for bow hunting. Big game targets do not require precision, at reasonable ranges, where you're never concerned about wind or bullet drop.
A good "crap load" for 308 AR 10 10 twist or 30" bolt 8 twist 308 target rifle is Speer 130 gr Varmint, with most powders from cheap MR 540 stick to W 748 ball, H380, and reject primed LC brass, shot it dirty with bullet sealent at first in the AR 10 ...first 5 shot group out of an auto loader mag went into .3" fluke the next 5 went .4" not bad for dirty primed surplus cases, powders. This bullet works in every 308 I own 12, 10, 9, & 8 twist.
Another is speer 168 will sometimes shoot 10 shots into 1" out of an AR 10. Shot clay pigeon at 600 yds + with this cheap 125 TNT bullet ....also ran the cheap primed LC cases with 225 eldm in the 30" 8 twist Lapua cases were a little over a .1" smaller over LC reject unsorted primed cases.
I have a bunch of Lapua brass in different calibers plus the premium bullets...but have done much experimenting with 308 and cheap components...fired through Bartlein. Proof, and Schilen barrels, in 308 all factory barrels shot out, and rebarreled. The 130 grain Speer is capable of 1000 yds hits on milk jugs at low muzzle velocity of 2650..if I remember correctly...ut was sub sonic before 700 yd, took 60 MOA to get to 1000...yet another experiment. That's why I have so many 308s they are accurate with crap ammo...the primers were free, the brass cheap LC by the thousand, bullets were 15 cents, powder is old reject military, or old stock I bought when it was $32 for 8 lbs.. IMR $3.89 a pound Run this old crap through your 308. and still have 1800 primers I paid $8.90 per thousand, and shooting those. The primers went into my heavy RL 26 338 win mag 275 gr at 2675 fps loads ..."Crap" (cheap and accurate) loads are Good for general shooting...and some of the expensive and popular components don't shoot as well in a few cases. But for pure accuracy it's a good place to start...but I don't always want the most accurate, I want speed with a slight loss in accuracy and most of the time my shooting endeavors don't require the most accurate a .2" or even a .5" larger group won't affect the outcome, depending on what you are trying to accomplish.
 
Junk? What do ya mean junk. "One man's trash is another man's treasure!"
I live a little over a mile from a large salvage yard... for a retired machinist, in a town that has a large group of machine shops and rare metals plants.
I go there often...it is more fun than a gun show . Buy lots of aluminum, high & low carbon steels, brass bronze, Stainless...some marked with PO numbers still on. Quality material at scrap prices. Aluminum plates for Bridgeport mill fixtures, rounds for the lathe, sometimes they have discounts...I buy extra materials and have low cost premium metals in most cases at scrap prices. If the store doesn't have it, I can make it. Industrial products surface plates, bearings, lead screws, progressive reloader, plastics very expensive and cheap types available. Just made forming die for the 8.6 blackout from grade 3 bolt to size 30-06 & 308 down to 8.6 blackout. Not available in any store it will size the 30-06 2.490" to 1.675" in one pass no lube required nice 30° shoulders, although I will do a light spray lube a few times it's not necessary. While others struggle with factory dies, 6.5 Creedmoor brass, dented shoulder , and wrinkled necks and shoulders, in there factory 8.6 dies. I shoot free range brass 30-06, 25-06, 308s, 243, 270...with 50 cent homemade die. Salvage yards, junk yards find some good stuff...also some junk...but expensive metal bar ends, not used, or in new condition, by the ton.
The only cheap bullet I don't like...but use are military FMJ from any manufacturer, (Sierra seemed to be the best) ...because they have never been consistently accurate past 5 shots in anything. Also use military LC as the preferred brass in 5.56 autos ...and range pick up. Never buy premium brass for 5.56 Auto...and they are accurate sometimes 10 shots in an inch or less in premium barrels, without the added expense for what I use them for. That would be different for a competition bolt gun...I'd have to try the premium brass.... so it's all up to you. How much accuracy do you need , how much time and effort are you willing to spend to get .1" or .2" inch increase in accuracy or be out shooting instead of reloading, hitting your target with inexpensive & little time spent rounds loaded on a Dillon progressive. Who cares if ya lose a few pieces of brass ...
You can do both I do.
"First shot miss? Who cares ? I still have 249 rds in the belt", Mike Dillon, of days gone by. Your application may differ.
 
A crappy bulk Hornady 108 108ELDM seated and powdered properly will shoot way inside a Berger 108 ELH that isn’t. And I have shot 30 cal Eldx that look like that picture. Not a nice trick to play on a new guy. Tough to get them long ones to get along. I didn’t know til Dusty posted that pic the first time. Boy was I pissed when I looked at mine, long ones up to .015 over. Oh well when you look back the first years won’t look great regardless.
dkhunt14, johara1, tom. I stumbled onto those three when I started here and what that say shows up on my paper.
 
While I agree wholeheartedly with Dusty, I have two examples that are the exception to the rule. 1. The wife bought me a rifle for Christmas that I had been drooling over for a while. Remington 700 VFS in left hand, 308. Spent 25 rounds of load development and settled on several times fired W-W brass fired from a different rifle, IMR-4064 powder in a metal can with a price tag of under $10.00. Sierra 168 match bullets is a paper box with metal tabs on the corners. All of this stuff had to be 20-30 years old. Took this package to a 600 yd. match and won class and overall plus shot my first clean.
2. Decided to use what I had laying around the shop to work up a load for a AR10T. Winchester nickeled brass, RL-15 powder and more of the ancient SMK168 bullets. Took it to a 3x600 match and shot a score just shy of HM.
Sometimes “junk” works.
Lloyd
 
Yes, Berger bullets are not the most accurate in every barrel...and they have been farther down than 2nd place, in some barrels.
The Berger 30 cal 168 gr hunting bullet has never been very accurate in a bunch of 308s with a variety of twist and has been less accurate than a number of cheap bullets. But my 6 dasher loves Berger 108s and RL15 had to shoot a bunch of 5 shot groups to specify the powder.... it was so close it could be the shooter but 13 groups said RL15, and Berger 108, so I purchased 3000 of them. The 200.2 is accurate in the 8 twist but the 200 SMK slightly more accurate, as was the 225 ELDM more accurate than the Atip so far.
The 6mm ARC AR shoots the 108 eldm well, but also the 107 SMK , 108 Bergers, and few good groups eith 115 DTAC.
So barrels have preferences and it's not always the same premium bullet "everybody" seems to use.
"Shoot & See", applies.
But I don't always shoot the most accurate bullet, I shoot 6 mm 110 SMK in my Dasher at 3085 fps for shots across canyon, rock shooting, in the mountains, cause the slight accuracy edge is not as important as high BC and higher velocity in the wind..works on steel too, as 6mm doesn't make much noise or leave a big bullet splash. But paper shooting back to the Berger 108 & RL-15. (I'm not using my Varget!...HEY, it's slower and not quite as accurate.) In my rifle at this time with this lot of powder, with this Berger 108.
Berger isn't always the best or most accurate bullet and I always smile when the cheap bullets out shoot them... especially really cheap ones like bulk 15 cent 130 Speer smokes the 168 Berger Hunting bullet that is shooting groups twice the size in several 308s....but I get adequate accuracy and over 2900 fps with it in 22" 9 twist hunting rifle, so it has good purpose.
But Berger has been a good standard to judge other bullets buy.
I'm happy we have a large variety of bullets available to try....if we can actually get them.
 
If you compensate by spending more prep time when you use lower quality components, you can still get decent quality loads, assuming you have adequate reloading skills.
Buy cheap bullets or brass and spend more time weighing measuring and sorting them. Neck turn and trim low quality brass to increase consistency. Point bullets. Weigh and sort primers.

The more time you put in, the more likely you get more accurate loads coming out.

Dusty pointed out the other problem. If the load is not shooting or throws a flier when using crappy components, you really have to have superior reloading skills to narrow down the likely cause.

If you have more time than money, go for it. You may get some isolated great outcomes. If you expect to turn sows ears into silk purses, ain’t gonna happen.;)
 
Dusty Stevens said:
You cant learn anything constructive from junk. I always said “perfect practice makes perfect”
Click to expand...
Ok... I’m going to disagree with this. I have learned a LOT working with “junk”. Back when I started this venture, I worked with machine gun LC brass, Speer, Sierra and Hornady bullets and a cheap scale. It gave me the basic experience of how to put things together, what to do and what not to do. I learned how to get a stuck case out of a die and why it stuck in the first place, along with other valuable lessons in reloading.
I don’t think a guy should start out with all the best components and equipment for reloading. I think he’ll miss out on a lot of valuable lessons.
Just me.
Add: I am not a Competition shooter. I’m just playing.
 
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