Copper reducing agent powder

[Park ranger]

I didn't think it was zinc. I think it's Tin.

 

[sbhooper]

I've tried CFE223. It's a lackluster spherical that carbon fowls like crazy. No copper buildup though =P

Negative. CFE 223 is not lackluster. I get 2934 fps with Hornady Interlocks from my Ruger American with 51 grains. Sub-moa accuracy and not as dirty as BLC2. Who cares if has some carbon? Clean the rifle and go on.

 

[waldo1979]

Negative. CFE 223 is not lackluster. I get 2934 fps with Hornady Interlocks from my Ruger American with 51 grains. Sub-moa accuracy and not as dirty as BLC2. Who cares if has some carbon? Clean the rifle and go on.

There are better powders on the market for less money that will produce better results with less fouling. For a 51gr have you tried benchmark?

 

[impalacustom]

Park Ranger you are right, I did some searching and it is tin, not zinc. I stand corrected. For what it's worth, there is a rumor that CFE223 is Win 748, I don't know if I believe it or not but that's what I've heard as a rumor, and well we know how rumors are.

 

[Changeling]

Anyone know where I can get some "Flyer agent" to mix in my H4350, my buddy says it's me but that can't be right, LOL.

 

[sbhooper]

There are better powders on the market for less money that will produce better results with less fouling. For a 51gr have you tried benchmark?

Sorry, I left out the part about it being a .308. 51 grains of powder.

 

[Dr4nra]

Park Ranger you are right, I did some searching and it is tin, not zinc. I stand corrected. For what it's worth, there is a rumor that CFE223 is Win 748, I don't know if I believe it or not but that's what I've heard as a rumor, and well we know how rumors are.

Newby here, but here goes. DuPont patented the addition of Tin Dioxide into gun powder around 1918 as a decoppering agent in their new IMR powder line. First batch used 4% tin dioxide which left a tin/carbon fouling that was worse than the copper. The ratio was reduced to 2% around the mid 20's. All IMR rifle powders since about 1930 have used a Tin Dioxide decoppering agent.
As of late most manufacturers including IMR are using a mixture of bismuth to make the copper fouling a little brittle so that most of it is blown out with the next shot.
At least that is my understanding as bismuth is cheaper and easier than Tin Dioxide.

 

[Brians356]

For what it's worth, there is a rumor that CFE223 is Win 748, I don't know if I believe it or not but that's what I've heard as a rumor, and well we know how rumors are.

I'm a betting man. And when it comes to rumors, I will bet against them being true every time. Trouble is I get so few takers. Funny how folks go to ground when you ask them to get skin in the game.

I'll make this easy: Go to Hodgdon's load data page and compare the charge data for CFE 223 with 748 for any suitable cartridge / bullet combination. Get back to me if they're identical - or even just very close. I won't be holding my breath.

 

[impalacustom]

I'm a betting man. And when it comes to rumors, I will bet against them being true every time. Trouble is I get so few takers. Funny how folks go to ground when you ask them to get skin in the game.

I'll make this easy: Go to Hodgdon's load data page and compare the charge data for CFE 223 with 748 for any suitable cartridge / bullet combination. Get back to me if they're identical - or even just very close. I won't be holding my breath.

I am pretty sure I stated my position, not sure what ruffled your feathers but to be 100% honest, I don't care if the powder is the same as rat pellets, as long as it does what I want it to do. I was just making a statement about the rumor I heard.

 

[StevenDzupin]

Newby here, but here goes. DuPont patented the addition of Tin Dioxide into gun powder around 1918 as a decoppering agent in their new IMR powder line. First batch used 4% tin dioxide which left a tin/carbon fouling that was worse than the copper. The ratio was reduced to 2% around the mid 20's. All IMR rifle powders since about 1930 have used a Tin Dioxide decoppering agent.
As of late most manufacturers including IMR are using a mixture of bismuth to make the copper fouling a little brittle so that most of it is blown out with the next shot.
At least that is my understanding as bismuth is cheaper and easier than Tin Dioxide.

Lets not forget the "Tin Can" ammo of the 1920's.
Everything old is new again.

 

[msinc]

Anyone know where I can get some "Flyer agent" to mix in my H4350, my buddy says it's me but that can't be right, LOL.

Hows about lettin' me know when you find this stuff...I think every bullet I sling is a flyer!!!!

 

[Brians356]

I am pretty sure I stated my position, not sure what ruffled your feathers but to be 100% honest, I don't care if the powder is the same as rat pellets, as long as it does what I want it to do. I was just making a statement about the rumor I heard.

What? My feathers ruffled? Let me check ... nope.

My point, if inelegantly made, was that such a rumor is trivially easy to dispel, should someone hold a modicum of doubt.

 

[pcmacd]

No more so than lead.

Lead is a serious problem. In addition to other things (losing teeth [displaced calcium], scrod up digestive system) it can, in high levels of exposure, replace calcium in one's bones. When it gets that bad it takes a very long time to remove it.

Zinc, OTOH, does have some health benefits at low doses.

There is no way to tell, short of an Industrial Hygienist study (wearing an air pump on your belt with a cartridge near your head to measure the zinc & other metals you are exposed to with these formulations? I used to do this for a living... .)

But is it only zinc they use? Tin can be used but is lots more expensive. And cadmium is chemically similar to zinc, and it can kill your kidneys; cheap zinc is often infused with cadmium unless the chemical process to make the zinc is top notch? How good is the zinc they use in these propellants?

As for me? I will AVOID like the freaking PLAGUE any propellant that contains "copper fouling reducing agents." Christ only knows what goes into them, and i promise you all they have not for one moment considered operator exposure to those chemicals?

If somebody gifted me 30 pounds of this stuff, I'd use it for fertilizer.

I swear, if cyanide were found to provide some benefit, the damn industry would use it.

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-982/zinc

 

[mike a]

Decoppering agent

 

[Catfur]

Holy Thread Necromancy, Batman!

 

[LCazador]

It's the "dirt" that keeps the carbon from sticking to the bore. One just has to decide which is the bigger problem, copper or soot.

I have used CFE223 in both .223 and .308 loads. Does yield speed that often is hard to get with other traditional powders but that's in MY rifle.

That soot is copper not carbon. Although through a bore scope it does look black. It's much easier to remove than copper or carbon. I think the whole idea that the powder company's have on this is you have a propellent residue that it much easier to remove from your bore. About 5 patches of Bore Tech carbon remover and it's gone together with any trace of copper or carbon. Bore scope verified. My worry is what's this all do to extreme spreads? Maybe great for factory barrels or hunting rifles or guys that don't like cleaning? What about the guys that think barrels shoot better when fouled? A couple hundred down and she must shoot incredible? My kind of rifle! Is there such a thing as I don't have to clean bores anymore? Maybe in my next lifetime. I have kept the cleaning patches and cleaning solutions folks in business for a long time and probably will continue until I'm gone!!

 

[Brians356]

Is there such a thing as I don't have to clean bores anymore?

Yes, you never have to clean a bore again. Unless you want to shoot something.

"I've got enough money to last me the rest of my life. Unless I want to buy something." Jackie Mason

 

[Ned Ludd]

As has already been noted, tin and bismuth are additives that have been used historically to help with copper fouling. As for their potential toxicity, it is certainly not zero, but they are generally considered "less" toxic among the heavy metals, for whatever that is worth. Given the various chemicals we are likely be exposed to during any given trip to the shooting range, I personally choose not to worry too much about de-coppering agents in powder.

The more important question to me would be how well do these additives actually work? Clearly, they can have some beneficial effect. But so does the regular use of a good copper-remover as a barrel-cleaning agent, something I do as part of my cleaning routine every time I fire a rifle. I strongly suspect copper-removing additives in smokeless powder will never fully classify as "Magic Beans", i.e. magical compounds capable of removing any and all traces of copper in a barrel, regardless of how or why it arose. In other words, using powders that contain these additives is all well and good, but I wouldn't recommend throwing away all your [barrel] copper cleaner.

 

[Brians356]

The more important question to me would be how well do these additives actually work? Clearly, they can have some beneficial effect. But so does the regular use of a good copper-remover as a barrel-cleaning agent, something I do as part of my cleaning routine every time I fire a rifle. I strongly suspect copper-removing additives in smokeless powder will never fully classify as "Magic Beans", i.e. magical compounds capable of removing any and all traces of copper in a barrel, regardless of how or why it arose. In other words, using powders that contain these additives is all well and good, but I wouldn't recommend throwing away all your [barrel] copper cleaner.

You should read the article Dick Metcalf wrote about CFE 223 in the Hodgdon 2013 annual reloading magazine. He took a heavily copper fouled 243 rifle (about as bad as it gets, with good bore scope pics to prove it) and ran quite a few CFE loads through it, which removed the fouling. He also proved that, starting with a clean bore, burning CFE prevents copper fouling from setting in.
-

 

[Ned Ludd]

I've read a few articles about the copper-reducing powder technology, including CFE223. The Metcalf article may have been one of them, I don't recall. As I stated, I have no doubt there is some benefit to using such a powder, if the burn rate and other features also suit your needs. However, I'm a little skeptical about any claims of "magic beans". Maybe it really does work that well, but since I've never used it myself, I'm not in a position to definitively state that it does, and I'd want to verify the performance in my own hands before touting it here.