copper fouling

[josebd]

Bought a used .204 savage Stevens with a model 12 .204 barrel,1-12 twist, owner said about 200 rounds through it.
Cleaned the bore, had alot of copper in it, I'm using sweets 7.62, after I got it fairly clean, I shot it 10 times, and it was copper fouled pretty good.
Do I keep cleaning after 10 shots or drop down to 5?
Haven't had a chance to see how accurate it is yet

 

[Warren Dean]

See how it shoots first.

"Copper fouling" is a pretty subjective term.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

See how it shoots first.

"Copper fouling" is a pretty subjective term.

+1

No sense in rebarreling if it shoots good. Excessive copper fouling doesn't always mean poor accuracy. I have a custom 6.5x55 Swede with an economy level Shilen Chrome Moly pipe on it. It is not hand lapped and fouls with copper horribly. So bad sometimes that I get very frustrated when trying to remove it all because it takes so long. I performed a proper barrel break-in procedure and it did nothing to help the fouling. I thought about hand lapping it, but you know what? That rifle will put 3 shots under 1/2" at 200 yards. So I just deal with it the way it is. It ain't broke so I'm not gonna fix it

 

[SShooterZ]

Most Savage factory barrels are copper mines. Until accuracy drifts off, I dont sweat it. Leave some Patch Out in overnight a few times and you'll get most of it out but as you mentioned, it will copper right back up. The only true way to relieve it is as Hog mentioned and rebarrel.

 

[josebd]

Just got through shooting some 3 shot groups,39bk, with 27.8 varget, and 40 berger by with 27.6 w748.
With the 39bk, out of 13 shots I had what looks like 3 tumblers on the target.but it grouped pretty good
With the 40 berger, shot 6 times no tumblers.grouped pretty good, and these are close to the lands.
If somebody will give me there email I'll send pics so you can post them for me.
Don't understand about the 3 that tumbled out of 13 shots? why wouldnt it do it all the time?

 

[L.Sherm]

If it's a 1-12 twist barrel you may be to slow to stableize that heavy of a bullet if you got some 32 gr. try that or try and push the heaverier bullets a little faster if your not max. out with pressure.

 

[josebd]

i would think it wouldve tumbled all 13 shots?

 

[L.Sherm]

Do you know what kind of velocity your getting? If you have some lighter gr. bullets shoot a 15-20 shoot string and see if they tumble if they do you have some other problem. I've heard some guys can shoot the 39gr. BK's and 40grs. if they push them in 1-12twist barrel and some can't.

 

[josebd]

it is 1-12 twist,dont know the velocity,but i have shot nthem in other 1-12 with no problem

 

[Ledd Slinger]

My 204 Ruger has a 1 in 12 twist and it shoots the 39gr BK's with amazing "one ragged hole" accuracy at 100 yards, but I am pushing them around 4015 fps froma 26" barrel so they have a higher RPM for proper stabilization. However, the barrel I had on the same rifle prior to the current barrel was a 1 in 12 twist as well, but only 22", and I was running them at about 3715 fps with excellent accuracy hovering around 1/2 MOA. So not sure why you are getting tumblers? Could have had some bad jackets on a few bullets. Would have to see the targets and verify the speeds with a chronograph to make a better guess.

 

[L.Sherm]

Put a tight patch on your cleaning rod and see if it's truely a 1-12, I've heard of barrels being slower than what they are advertised. Also thats why I say shoot some lighter bulletsif they don't tumble then you definately have a stableizing issue, then your gonna have to probably push the hevier bullets harder or go lighter.

 

[josebd]

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[josebd]

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[Ledd Slinger]

Just hit the "Copy Image" button on the photobucket pics and paste them to your reply and pics will load on here. Lot easier than pasting the URL.

 

[josebd]

 

[josebd]

Picture 1 and 4 has the keyholes

 

[josebd]

anybody think i have a problem with the barrel?i have some 32 vmax i need to load up and try,it shot the 40 grain bergers good,39 good also just those 3 that key holed

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Definitely got some wobblers and fliers. I would do what L.Sherm suggested and run a tight patch down your bore to check the "actual" twist rate. Looks like 32gr will be better suited for your barrel regardless of actual twist rate.

If not sure how to check twist rate on a barrel, here's a simple procedure to figure it out:

Get the rod started in the bore a few inches with a tight solvent soaked patch.
Use white out to make a mark on your rod shaft at 12 o'clock just in front of the rod handle.
Make a mark at the back of your action using a good reference point. The back edge of a bore guide is a good reference point to use.
Run the rod in until the white mark in front of your handle comes back to 12 o'clock again and STOP.
Make another mark on the rod at the same reference point on the back of your action.
Remove the rod and measure the distance of the two marks you made at the back of the action.

Your twist is 1 in "the distance of the marks". Pretty simple.

 

[bigedp51]

Below is a magnified bore scope photo of a brand new Savage button rifled bore.

Below is a new Savage bore that was fire lapped to reduce the size of the "speed bumps".

I collect milsurp rifles and have two Savage Stevens 200 rifles with button rifled barrels. So do yourself a favor and remember "less is more" and do not "over clean these type rifle bores. This is because even if you clean all the copper from the bore the first time you pull the trigger the low spots in the bore will fill with copper all over again. So just give these type bores one shot of foam bore cleaner and call it quits.

Below a 1943 No.4 British .303 Enfield rifle with a frosted and pitted bore and after just one shot of foam bore cleaner 95% of the copper is removed "WITHOUT" brushing.

Spare the rod and spoil the bore.

 

[GrocMax]

My experience with the 39BK's in several different 20 cal aftermarket hand-lapped button rifled barrels was they are pretty fragile, sensitive to barrel conditions, while the 40 vmax was not. 12tw works fine for me, while the 11tw may be in theory a better choice.