I too, use two steps. The first with Ed's Red for the carbon...which acts a lot like Butch's, followed by Patch Out with accelerator, just as greyfox mentioned. IME, there is no cleaner that works great for both carbon and copper but there are cleaners that are pretty darn good at one or the other. Oh, and Ed's Red has been around forever...still the best I've seen on carbon and general cleaning, but it does little for copper.