Considering Spacegun and Spacegun Jr.

[adv_rider]

Hello All,

While I’m new to the forum I am not new to target shooting and have a long history with precision disciplines (Jr Olympic Archery, Precision Smallbore, Precision Air Rifle, Bullseye Pistol). Back in 2018 I bought a nice WOA NM service rifle and 22LR trainer upper from CLE and was planning on giving that a go.

Not exactly sure why, but service rifle isn’t really grabbing me. It doesn’t seem to be anything in particular, I just prefer the more typical precision setup (front and rear apertures, handstop, some buttplate adjustability). So, I’m considering changing my NM service rifle and 22 trainer upper to a spacegun setup.

Anybody want to chime in with advice? Here is what I was thinking:

The service rifle upper is the A2 pattern, so I’d need to swap for a flat top. (The 22 trainer is already a flat top)

I was also thinking a 6” or 9” bloop tube (both uppers have 20” barrels) with a RPA tall boy front and a Phoenix precision rear sight – both with adjustable apertures. I’d use the same sight set for both uppers and swap as needed. While very familiar with aperture sights, I have no direct experience with this combo front rear. Looking on the forum they seem to be a common 'go to' set.

To get around having to get a carrier mounted handle, I was thinking a Medesha Buttstock

I’d also need a match handguard and handstop. While a bit of a PIA, I could probably get away with one set and swap between uppers.

Sound like a decent plan? This wouldn’t be for hardcore competition – just looking to build skill, have fun, and maybe compete at a club/local regional level.

Since I’m currently without a precision smallbore I’m weighing the spacegun/spacegun jr. route against getting a dedicated precision smallbore used off TargetTalk.

I figured I’d ask the forum and get a plan while I’m out of commission for hernia surgery and then keep an eye on the marketplace. Thank you for any feedback!

 

[kzin]

Spacegun with irons is an orphan without a class in HP now.
You can shoot it but it will be against scopes.
Of course with flattops you could do both.
I've heard the CLE uppers will compete in smallbore at all but the very highest levels.

That Medesha stuff is an interesting option but it seems like a big investment for something that would still be inferior to a side charger.

 

[adv_rider]

Thank you for the feedback

Yes. I do concede that irons are a rather dead end with the current HP format. I've just used irons all my life and like em - but as I ease into middle age I should probably rethink that.

I'm not sure i understand the point about the side charger. A Medesha buttstock runs 400, whereas something like a WOA buttstock is 440 and requires the side charger mod. (New prices pulled from vendor websites). To clarify I'd be keeping my current lower and just putting on the adjustable buttstock.

 

[jelenko]

While scopes do have an advantage, nothing wrong about irons - I love the sight picture. If you've competed with precision smallbore and air rifle, you'd be hard to beat.
That said, it's the development of cataracts that really impact your ability to see clearly through the irons. Once you have your lenses replaced, your vision for irons can be the same as in your 20's.

You may have to use a Centra rear sight - Phoenix Precision no longer makes rear sights nor does Warner. You could post a WTB, but I don't think you lose anything with a Centra.

I've used WOA's adjustable buttstock - with the side charger, of course. I really like the buttstock.
The Medesha one looks interesting. If you do go that route, I'd like to hear your assessment. It would be nice to be freed from having to worry about getting new bolt carriers with side charging.

FYI. The 22lr upper that Keystone Accuracy makes is, in my opinion, a better option than the CLE one.
Keystone builds in a feed ramp that helps chambering a lot and the upper uses standard Black Dog mags - no fiddling with the mag inserts to get reliable feeding.

 

[kzin]

Thank you for the feedback

Yes. I do concede that irons are a rather dead end with the current HP format. I've just used irons all my life and like em - but as I ease into middle age I should probably rethink that.

I'm not sure i understand the point about the side charger. A Medesha buttstock runs 400, whereas something like a WOA buttstock is 440 and requires the side charger mod. (New prices pulled from vendor websites). To clarify I'd be keeping my current lower and just putting on the adjustable buttstock.

yeah, I read it as 400 for the flip-up not including the stock.
You're right, 450 for everything including the modified t-handle.
Wonder if an existing handle and a hacksaw would work.
As jelenko said, keep us posted on how that works out if you go that way, I hadn't seen that option before.

 

[adv_rider]

FYI. The 22lr upper that Keystone Accuracy makes is, in my opinion, a better option than the CLE one.
Keystone builds in a feed ramp that helps chambering a lot and the upper uses standard Black Dog mags - no fiddling with the mag inserts to get reliable feeding.

Hi Jelenko. I already have a CLE 22 NM service rifle trainer upper, and yeah I do have feeding issues with the m261 mag inserts. They stink! Black Dog does make compatible mags that work which are on my list of things to try.

olympic-m261

M261/Olympic Arms- 10 & 25 RD Magazines

www.blackdogmachinellc.net

If I were to go back in a time machine to 2018 when I got the upper, I don't think I would go the CLE route for the reason you mentioned. Too bad since it is a rather nice upper otherwise. Just need to put more time into working the issue.

 

[adv_rider]

One thing about the m261 blag dog mags linked above is it is not clear what the 'ar mag profile' is for the various 22lr capacities. If the AR mag profile is similar to a 30 rounder, that is gonna be a problem in prone....

One day I will email them to see what's what.

 

[Jeff Porter]

Are you planning to shoot across the course High-power or just prone matches?

I have gone down this road and if you are wanting to shoot prone or maybe even Palma and long range out to 1000 - you will want a longer barrel than the 20" SR barrel. I would suggest selling what you have and getting a bolt action tube gun, Eliseo or MAK style.

I have a 26" Kreiger 1:7 Space gun with side charger that hammers XTC and I have shot it in Palma matches with the 88 ELDM with good results but for over 600 yards, I prefer my tube gun or the wood stocked Palma rifle.

If you are committed to working with what you have now -Champions Choice makes the Medesha style extensions.

Get a two 0.750" Connectors ( one for each upper)

Champion's Choice Sight Extension Mount (.750) | Champion's Choice

and one tube to get at least 30" sight radius.

Champion's Choice Sight Extension Tube (10") | Champion's Choice

(Depending on the rear sight you end up with, they are calibrated for 30 or 36 " so the clicks may not match up to 1/4 MOA. )

Put a tall boy type front sight on the extension and get a rear sight and swap them back and forth.
CC has the Mo's or have Doug Beach make one for you. Doug does great work.

MO'S 22mm Front Sight with Tall Ladder | Champion's Choice

The front Iris and lens Lots of options. - I have linked 22mm but 30mm or 18 mm parts are out there too. Mark Trew sells Centra at great prices.

(I have a Lipski Tall front sight and a 22mm front tube with an iris and no lens I would sell you If you want to try that as a way to start out. PM me for details)

Rear sights for AR Pic rail mount are not cheap...

Centra Rear Sight for AR-15 Flat Top Base (Service Rifle Directions) | Champion's Choice

I have Warner #1, RPA Tracker, Redfield Palma and a Centra like the one I linked above. They tend to multiply when you start shooting iron sight matches...

Good luck with your plans!

 

[adv_rider]

Howdy Jeff and thank you for the advice.

If I were to complete it would be for XTC since I enjoy position work. However at the moment I am fairly distance constrained for my available ranges (200 yards). Between the dog, house, classic car, and two motorcycles I am time constrained too! But retirement is not that far away and I can pick up things here and there through the marketplace since there is no rush.

In the next 5 years I plan on moving and a desirement is being able to put a 600 yard range on the lot... Although I'd probably settle for a 200 yard range at home, 10m air rifle range in the basement or garage, and easy access to a club with 600. I would LOVE (!!!) to practice 2 hrs a day with either 3 PAR or Precision smallbore with some high power mixed in for good measure.

 

[Bennybooboo]

Be sure to also check usrifleteams.com/forums to check for previously owned equipment as well as advise on the topic at hand.

Since nobody else has said it yet, I'll mention the huge benefit of incorporating a SCATT training tool mounted on whatever you choose to shoot. Expensive on the front end? Yes. Will it pay for itself in a year or two of savings on ammunition components and gas? Oh yeah! And you'll even have a ton of data to geek out on to compare what you thought would work, what actually works, and what doesn't work at all.

 

[55fairlane]

I have an AR based match rifle , like you are pondering.........I have both irons & an optic on it.....I still shoot practice matches with the irons and mid range....part of that is a buddy wants my to shoot Palma and more LD matches.............
Get the best of irons you can afford, but have an optic on hand ......if your are that good with irons your probably gonna ok, but understand optics are now dominant in XTC (and some long distance) ........ sling shooters United....lol

 

[adv_rider]

The best Bullseye shooters at my club use a SCATT trainer and it is a very nice tool. It is also on my list of things to invest in, but it is just about last in line before I retire. I am leery of investing in tech that I won't use a lot right off the bat.

As for joining the usarifleteams forum, they ok with amateurs? It isn't like I am standing in a corner putting brass up my nose for fun, but on the other hand i am not anywhere close to pro.

 

[karrarararararar]

On the topic on buttstocks, is Medesha even still operating? His website hasn't been updated since 2009. I'm pretty sure White Oak and Eliseo are your only options unless you find a used one.

 

[karrarararararar]

As for joining the usarifleteams forum, they ok with amateurs? It isn't like I am standing in a corner putting brass up my nose for fun, but on the other hand i am not anywhere close to pro.

Everyone is more than welcome. The name makes is sound like it's for team shooters, but it's for everyone involved in high power shooting. Shoot an message to the admins when you sign up, the site has a bug that causes approvals to go unnoticed .

 

[adv_rider]

On the topic on buttstocks, is Medesha even still operating? His website hasn't been updated since 2009. I'm pretty sure White Oak and Eliseo are your only options unless you find a used one.

I figured that was likely the case.

At the moment I'm just trying to figure out a spacegun pattern and if I want to:
-convert my current nm a2 upper to new pattern
-convert my nm a2 upper AND cle 22lr nm upper (a4 with front sight block and carry handle so basically same as a2) to new pattern.
-do something completely new and different!

That said, this is a long term project so waiting for the right bits and bots to pop up on the marketplace will be part of the fun !