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Concerning the "Carpet Rule" and CIHPRS matches

Heman

Good Evening,


There has been some questions regarding will I enforce the rule that Mid Tompkins is making up for the F-Class nationals that is not an official NRA Rule at our matches at Camp Atterbury.

So here is my statement on the whole thing.

I am not the carpet police.

I am not going to go inspect carpet if someone says another shooter has illegal carpet.

I am not gong to check everyone's carpet, that is why I put in hardwood floors I hate looking at carpet. Proposed rules should be objective, not subjective, this rule is subjective. Even if it becomes an official NRA rule it will not be enforced at our range because we follow USHPSA rules and that will not be one of those rules. Rules for an organization that limit competition should never be proposed by one person and unilaterally imposed on the entire shooting community.

There is not an official F-Class carpet gauge to measure carpet, therefore it is a subjective rule. This is no different than DQing a shooter for to low of a position. There is no "Your position is to low gauge" to measure, that is also a subjective rule.

I am not going to enforce a rule that is being put in place because someone was butt hurt that a person won Berger SWN in place of one of his team shooters.

There is enough other stuff that has been and is being allowed into F-Class shooting over the years that by the spirit of the original intent of the discipline and existing rules should not be. I am not going to enforce a rule that has little to no impact on a shooter and their scores when other equipment which does have a major impact is allowed.

Bottom line, come to the range, with your F-T/R rifles as you always have and they are considered F-T/R rifles and you can shoot. The best shooter will win. If you want to complain about people using illegal carpet, please park your car in the parking lot by the airfield and once we lock Gate 31, I will address your complaint.

Have a great evening :)

Shawn Agne
CIHPRS Match Director and President
 
Obviously you have know idea what you are talking about and trying to throw someone who has done more than you will ever do for this sport under the bus is just sickening. Mid Tompkins is not making up a rule for the F Class Nationals, the HP committee has provided the guidelines for how the current rule will be governed.
 
Congrat on creating a further divide in the shooting sport by creating the USHPSA. So are all your matches going to follow those rules, or are you going to try to feed off of the NRA. In my eyes you can't have both. Are your shooters ok with your matches not being registered by the NRA and being part of the USHPSA. If you can't be part of the solution you are the problem.
 
Never ; in my seventy-one years , have I ever read such a distasteful , back-handed , insulting piece of drivel in my life . You Sir ; may be the head of some organization , but Mid Thompkins was helping advance the shooting community and the NRA long before you came upon the scene . The only question I have for you ; since I don't know you , and have never met you , is this . When were you Honored by the shooting community of your state , and had one of the largest shooting ranges in the world dedicated to you , in your name ? Your petty posting here , and your snarky , small-minded comments do a dis-service to all of us .
Disgusting to say the least .
 
Matthew Schwartzkopf said:
Congrat on creating a further divide in the shooting sport by creating the USHPSA. So are all your matches going to follow those rules, or are you going to try to feed off of the NRA. In my eyes you can't have both. Are your shooters ok with your matches not being registered by the NRA and being part of the USHPSA. If you can't be part of the solution you are the problem.
Click to expand...

The BOD of the club made a business decision. Pure and simple.

As I recall we were giving the NRA $3000-4000 per year in fees. What service were we getting?

National records held for 18 months.
Classifications that didn't post for weeks or months yet the check had cashed immediately.
Inexpensive Regional Medals that would show up after the match.
DR steps that sat for years and didn't honor great FTR shooters because they were lumped in with FOpen.
Rules that are antiquated and inflexible like not allowing Match Directors, Stat Officers, etc to compete. And frankly when a rule does get changed it's by a HP committee that often has a vested interest with the results.

No different than you or me assessing my cable service, phone service, etc. What am I getting for my money.

Once the BOD discussed it we put it to a survey of the shooters.

Overwhelmingly people just wanted to shoot. 90% plus did not care if it was NRA or not. We were going to just have the State and Regionals be NRA Registered until there was another paperwork conflict with the NRA. That put an end to that so we had our own medals made with real high quality metal.

Some people want classifications so we offer a split season league that is NRA approved.

Simple fact of the matter.....We are the customer and the NRA is our service provider. They did not serve us well. It's not personal. It's not against the ladies in the office because I know they are short staffed. It's business.

And you know what....even with Covid our numbers are great. And....we kept holding matching when the NRA would not recognize other matches. We bought 2 more Silver Mountain Targets for our members/guests with money we are saving.

The NRA has become like a government bureaucracy serving themselves, not others. So we left.

The NRA was the problem. THIS was our solution.

We will see how it goes for a couple of years and reassess if needed. But for now, no regrets.

Regarding the original post, Shawn, the match director, was asked about enforcing this "rule" at upcoming matches. We have discussed at length the way it's written and we don't like it from an enforcement capacity. I like the intent....not the execution. So he pasted his exact email that went to all 400+ people that have registered for our shoots. This post was to let others know where we stand for now since some of our upcoming shoots are being posted on this site for the F Class Points Series. We don't want a guest to be unaware.
 
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flintcreek6412 said:
The BOD of the club made a business decision. Pure and simple.

As I recall we were giving the NRA $3000-4000 per year in fees. What service were we getting?

National records held for 18 months.
Classifications that didn't post for weeks or months yet the check had cashed immediately.
Inexpensive Regional Medals that would show up after the match.
DR steps that sat for years and didn't honor great FTR shooters because they were lumped in with FOpen.
Rules that are antiquated and inflexible like not allowing Match Directors, Stat Officers, etc to compete. And frankly when a rule does get changed it's by a HP committee that often has a vested interest with the results.

No different than you or me assessing my cable service, phone service, etc. What am I getting for my money.

Once the BOD discussed it we put it to a survey of the shooters.

Overwhelmingly people just wanted to shoot. 90% plus did not care if it was NRA or not. We were going to just have the State and Regionals be NRA Registered until there was another paperwork conflict with the NRA. That put an end to that so we had our own medals made with real high quality metal.

Some people want classifications so we offer a split season league that is NRA approved.

Simple fact of the matter.....We are the customer and the NRA is our service provider. They did not serve us well. It's not personal. It's not against the ladies in the office because I know they are short staffed. It's business.

And you know what....even with Covid our numbers are great. And....we kept holding matching when the NRA would not recognize other matches. We bought 2 more Silver Mountain Targets for our members/guests with money we are saving.

The NRA has become like a government bureaucracy serving themselves, not others. So we left.

The NRA was the problem. THIS was our solution.

We will see how it goes for a couple of years and reassess if needed. But for now, no regrets.

Regarding the original post, Shawn, the match director, was asked about enforcing this "rule" at upcoming matches. We have discussed at length the way it's written and we don't like it from an enforcement capacity. I like the intent....not the execution. So he pasted his exact email that went to all 400+ people that have registered for our shoots. This post was to let others know where we stand for now since some of our upcoming shoots are being posted on this site for the F Class Points Series. We don't want a guest to be unaware.
Click to expand...

So it is okay to smear the name of someone who is working with the NRA to try to resolve issues and work to better the sport vs. being like the CIHPRS and Shawn Agne and provide no productive support to the NRA to better the sport and bash anyone who does. Bravo

Since you say you like the intent, what have you done to understand the execution and why it has happened this way? You have just created more rumors and divide in the sport.
 
Matthew Schwartzkopf said:
So it is okay to smear the name of someone who is working with the NRA to try to resolve issues and work to better the sport vs. being like the CIHPRS and Shawn Agne and provide no productive support to the NRA to better the sport and bash anyone who does. Bravo

Since you say you like the intent, what have you done to understand the execution and why it has happened this way? You have just created more rumors and divide in the sport.
Click to expand...


Wow man... Take a lap. Shawn sent out a questionnaire months ago to survey who cared if his matches were NRA or not. Obviously not enough people cared. I'm only a few years into this particular sport and the kind of poop you're throwing is REALLY unattractive to new shooters. I dont speak for everyone, but it's probably unattractive to experienced shooters as well.

As a new person to the sport, can you tell me what value the NRA provides to the mass population of the contributing competitors? I've never heard anyone praise their involvement or added value to the sport.
 
Mathew,

You took this initial post way to personal. As Bob said this is just to let people know we are not going to enforce the "Carpet Rule."

Back to the rule the intent is so the F-T/R guns dont track like an Open gun. But the rule does not specify how much force needs to be applied and where, like the SR trigger weight rule. It is very abstract and subjective, therefore it is a bad rule. How much side force do I need to apply 1lb, 3lb, 7lb? Where do I apply the force?

It was also said that rules are being made to better align US shooting rules with ICFRA, that is funny because that is where I was told the initial uproar came from. Again making a rule for the minority to affect the majority, not a good rule.

I understand you are young and the glimmer of the NRA is still sparkling in your eyes much as it did for me when I started shooting and running the matches at our club. I also understand your loyalty to Mid because he helped get you shooting and given his position probably helped you get you started in your career. I also understand your loyalty to the NRA because of your position at Arizona Fish and Wildlife. One of my very good friends retired last year was #2 at Indiana DNR he too use to think highly of the NRA in his youth as you do now. We all were there at one time, but with age and wisdom both myself and Mark both saw the NRA for what it really is.

I did try to help the NRA, met with Col. Gardner on behalf of Dennis Willing there at the base before the move. Drove over several times to check stuff out for Dennis on my dime. Played front man for Dennis online to help the NRA and then got drug through the mud. I offered 20 electronic targets (our 12, plus 8 more I could secure from SMT) for the 2018 Nationals, free, the NRA said no because they were afraid. The first year we let the NRA use some of our club stuff, free, they never reimbursed us, even though they said they would. Nobody is smearing anyone you are the one that made this all personal. ISRPA offered to help do stuff because they could do it better than the NRA, but the NRA didn't take them up on the help either. Sitting back watching the NRA nationals die, like the sinking Titanic as they rearrange deck chairs isn't fun, but they had their chance and have blown it.

There are people in the NRA who are "trying" to make stuff better, but they've been trying to make it better for 20-30 years and it has gone downhill. This is no different than career politicians in Washington who are there 20,30, or 40 years and nothing gets done it just gets worse. You can keep saying you are trying but if it doesn't improve it isn't working. That is the central problem there needs to be new blood in the NRA.

There is corruption not only in ILA but also competitions. In fall of 2016 one of the executives was fired because he was siphoning of money from competitions for his own pet projects. Shall we mention all the money that use to be there for the Palma team, but then mysteriously disappeared? How about all the money that comes in for the matches at Atterbury, Ranges cost $110 a day in 2017, upped to 250-ish a day in 2018, way cheaper than Perry. Housing was $38 a night for deluxe rooms, cheaper than Perry, not paying for the boats. So where does the money go? Prices are the same as Perry but the NRAs costs have decreased substantially. Then they have the nerve to ask for donations for electronic targets, this is why people are fed up with the NRA.

The NRA is a huge bureaucracy that is completely inefficient. Rules are proposed, you never hear back from committee, they meet in October-ish. Then what they decide may or may not get approved by directors and then sent to the big meeting for approval in Jan/Feb, and then doesn't get released to public till May. So I ask you, when did the HP Committee provide guidance? Bergers is after the HP Committee meeting. There was nothing going on in competitions since April. Cole is the only one there, they are taking money but to my knowledge the only person working yet is Cole, don't think they are inputting scores yet. So when did they meet to provide this guidance? If it was after the general meeting where the HP Committee approves stuff for the board then it needs to go to the next cycle. Meaning the meeting in October of 2020. If you are talking an interpretation? Well then they didn't make a new rule but rather gave their interpretation and the rule was written by the match director and being enforced is being done by him. You can not have an official new rule unless it goes through the process. The reason I say all of this is I complained about the process many times, why we got fed up with the NRA. Now a match director can add stuff so long as it is in the bulletin that isn't an official NRA rule. But then the Match director is adding/creating a rule on his own.
 
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There is a lot to be said for individual nations competing in F class competition to make their domestic rules as consistent as possible with those of international (ICFRA) competition. Sure, most of us won't represent our country but it can be a bit of a nuisance if not worse if it happens that local equipment team members qualify with is not ICFRA compliant.

Keep in mind too that those ICFRA rules are normally only changed once every four years at a meeting of member nations during the international championship.
 
Heman said:
Mathew,

You took this initial post way to personal. As Bob said this is just to let people know we are not going to enforce the "Carpet Rule."

Back to the rule the intent is so the F-T/R guns dont track like an Open gun. But the rule does not specify how much force needs to be applied and where, like the SR trigger weight rule. It is very abstract and subjective, therefore it is a bad rule. How much side force do I need to apply 1lb, 3lb, 7lb? Where do I apply the force?

It was also said that rules are being made to better align US shooting rules with ICFRA, that is funny because that is where I was told the initial uproar came from. Again making a rule for the minority to affect the majority, not a good rule.

I understand you are young and the glimmer of the NRA is still sparkling in your eyes much as it did for me when I started shooting and running the matches at our club. I also understand your loyalty to Mid because he helped get you shooting and given his position probably helped you get you started in your career. I also understand your loyalty to the NRA because of your position at Arizona Fish and Wildlife. One of my very good friends retired last year was #2 at Indiana DNR he too use to think highly of the NRA in his youth as you do now. We all were there at one time, but with age and wisdom both myself and Mark both saw the NRA for what it really is.


I did try to help the NRA, met with Col. Gardner on behalf of Dennis Willing there at the base before the move. Drove over several times to check stuff out for Dennis on my dime. Played front man for Dennis online to help the NRA and then got drug through the mud. I offered 20 electronic targets (our 12, plus 8 more I could secure from SMT) for the 2018 Nationals, free, the NRA said no because they were afraid. The first year we let the NRA use some of our club stuff, free, they never reimbursed us, even though they said they would. Nobody is smearing anyone you are the one that made this all personal. ISRPA offered to help do stuff because they could do it better than the NRA, but the NRA didn't take them up on the help either. Sitting back watching the NRA nationals die, like the sinking Titanic as they rearrange deck chairs isn't fun, but they had their chance and have blown it.

There are people in the NRA who are "trying" to make stuff better, but they've been trying to make it better for 20-30 years and it has gone downhill. This is no different than career politicians in Washington who are there 20,30, or 40 years and nothing gets done it just gets worse. You can keep saying you are trying but if it doesn't improve it isn't working. That is the central problem there needs to be new blood in the NRA.

There is corruption not only in ILA but also competitions. In fall of 2016 one of the executives was fired because he was siphoning of money from competitions for his own pet projects. Shall we mention all the money that use to be there for the Palma team, but then mysteriously disappeared? How about all the money that comes in for the matches at Atterbury, Ranges cost $110 a day in 2017, upped to 250-ish a day in 2018, way cheaper than Perry. Housing was $38 a night for deluxe rooms, cheaper than Perry, not paying for the boats. So where does the money go? Prices are the same as Perry but the NRAs costs have decreased substantially. Then they have the nerve to ask for donations for electronic targets, this is why people are fed up with the NRA.

The NRA is a huge bureaucracy that is completely inefficient. Rules are proposed, you never hear back from committee, they meet in October-ish. Then what they decide may or may not get approved by directors and then sent to the big meeting for approval in Jan/Feb, and then doesn't get released to public till May. So I ask you, when did the HP Committee provide guidance? Bergers is after the HP Committee meeting. There was nothing going on in competitions since April. Cole is the only one there, they are taking money but to my knowledge the only person working yet is Cole, don't think they are inputting scores yet. So when did they meet to provide this guidance? If it was after the general meeting where the HP Committee approves stuff for the board then it needs to go to the next cycle. Meaning the meeting in October of 2020. If you are talking an interpretation? Well then they didn't make a new rule but rather gave their interpretation and the rule was written by the match director and being enforced is being done by him. You can not have an official new rule unless it goes through the process. The reason I say all of this is I complained about the process many times, why we got fed up with the NRA. Now a match director can add stuff so long as it is in the bulletin that isn't an official NRA rule. But then the Match director is adding/creating a rule on his own.
Click to expand...

I do know most parties in this thread pretty well.

Shawn,

Your Initial post is worded terrible. It appears as if you are speaking poorly of Mid Tompkins. I would be really surprised and disappointed if you intended that in your message? Correct me if I’m wrong? I still don’t think you ever said I’m sorry?

Most of us know your feelings about the NRA but they really don’t need to be aired out in any forum, Matt is correct we should be united and build the sport in a positive way together. We have spoken about this before. No matter how you choose promote the sport, do it in a positive manner not bashing other organizations or people.

Matt,

I assure you both Bob Petiillo and Shawn Agne work very hard to run matches 4-6 times a month. As you and I both know as Match Directors this is not a job anyone wants and few people respect. So when you ask Bob what has he done to understand…. He does understand completely and he is doing his part to help promote the sport.

We need to focus on our Sport. There is a lot that is positive if we will just look that way.

Sincerely,

Dwayne Draggoo
 
Heman said:
Good Evening,


There is not an official F-Class carpet gauge to measure carpet, therefore it is a subjective rule.


I am not going to enforce a rule that is being put in place because someone was butt hurt that a person won Berger SWN in place of one of his team shooters.
Click to expand...


You are spot on about the rules being subjective. That's why it is a good thing that match directors have discretion in interpreting them to a degree.

As for the comment about SWN, you don't have all the information. Please get the facts before you make a blanket indictment like that.



I find it amusing and sad that so many otherwise intelligent people have had such a vehement knee jerk reaction to this whole carpet thing. Some act like it is the end of F-T/R and others rage indignantly because that's what they do on these forums.

Peace, out
 
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pirate ammo said:
And some wonder why I don't join anything.
Click to expand...
Hell yeah Capt. Everytime I got in an org. for anything the rules kept changing until the "right" people could win or run the org.. I think that is why so many clubs have adapted groundhog and steel plate matches. Simple rules. Factory gun means no aftermarket stuff and everything else is custom or modified. I just like to shoot.And carpet is for in your house. Jeff P.S. Nice shop,good luck.
 
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