Concentricity Gauge

[MATSUBOB]

I have, or have owned 4 different Concentricity Gauges and the One I like (and use ) is made by
H & H Industries , Albany OR. It not only does a great job, but also has the only straightening accessory that I have ever used that really works. You can see a review at this web site:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/hh-concentricity-gauge-and-bullet-straightener/

 

[waltk]

Concerning the H&H gauge is the indicator included in the price?

 

[Shynloco]

Mac,
Alex is correct about many different answers, I own a hornaday and would have thrown it in the garbage the day I bought it but I happen to like the garbage man so it sits on the shelf, to remind me of my wasted $99 if you want to do it all all I would say the Neco is the best or the 21st century they have the best indicators for the intended purpose, however the 21st cant do everything but if the best bang for the buck is the Sinclair but again it can't do it all but it does all I need, I own several of those and two Neco's I use the Sinclair the most though.
Wayne.

Wayne,
I'm much to cheap of a bastard to be throwing $99 in the trash and it ain't because I like my trashman. If I weren't cheap, chances are good that gauge would have been a goner the first time I used it.

Alex

 

[jdb]

There's a good video of the Accuracy One Concentricity Gauge on this site. Go to the top of this page, click on "Articles", on that page (7 words down on the left side) click on "Gear," scroll down to the picture of the gauge, click on it & the video's in there!

 

[BoydAllen]

The H&H price includes the indicator. I have one.

 

[bozo699]

Mac,
Alex is correct about many different answers, I own a hornaday and would have thrown it in the garbage the day I bought it but I happen to like the garbage man so it sits on the shelf, to remind me of my wasted $99 if you want to do it all all I would say the Neco is the best or the 21st century they have the best indicators for the intended purpose, however the 21st cant do everything but if the best bang for the buck is the Sinclair but again it can't do it all but it does all I need, I own several of those and two Neco's I use the Sinclair the most though.
Wayne.

Wayne,
I'm much to cheap of a bastard to be throwing $99 in the trash and it ain't because I like my trashman. If I weren't cheap, chances are good that gauge would have been a goner the first time I used it.

Alex

I really am glad it works for you Alex, they do have there merrits, there was a real long thread one time I was involved and Mikecr wrote a couple good posts on the merrits of checking loaded ammo on the Hornady.
Wayne.

 

[BaconFat]

You have all these concentricity gauges that let you know what your runout is, but then what do you do with that information?

Hardly any of them have a way to make adjustments to bring your concentricity down to minimum. That's why I think the H&H piece is great.

You check for runout and if it's beyond acceptable limits you can fix it. I'm able to consistently reduce my runout to 0.0005.

Sometimes the needle on the dial just kind of quivers. Not always, but often enough.

There's always people pointing out the flaws about how one concentricity gauge takes measurement or how the case is suspended or held in place.

I guess it's that none of the gauges are perfect. You just have to decide which gauge seems to work the best and go with it.

So my vote is for a H & H Industries unit.

Now whether even worrying about concentricity is worth while is ...... Something I'm not really sure of. Seems to me that the bullet

will get straightened out almost as soon as it gets fully lodged in the barrel once you've pulled the trigger.

 

[waltk]

Thank you Mr. Allen for your reply.
Seeing how you own one what do you think?
What are the pros and cons?
Does it really work well?

 

[bozo699]

You have all these concentricity gauges that let you know what your runout is, but then what do you do with that information?

Hardly any of them have a way to make adjustments to bring your concentricity down to minimum. That's why I think the H&H piece is great.

You check for runout and if it's beyond acceptable limits you can fix it. I'm able to consistently reduce my runout to 0.0005.

Sometimes the needle on the dial just kind of quivers. Not always, but often enough.

There's always people pointing out the flaws about how one concentricity gauge takes measurement or how the case is suspended or held in place.

I guess it's that none of the gauges are perfect. You just have to decide which gauge seems to work the best and go with it.

So my vote is for a H & H Industries unit.

Now whether even worrying about concentricity is worth while is ...... Something I'm not really sure of. Seems to me that the bullet

will get straightened out almost as soon as it gets fully lodged in the barrel once you've pulled the trigger.

Bacon fat,
I use a concentricity gauge to see if I have runout, if I do I find out why and fix it, by straightening bent ammo you have fixed nothing! I don't know why people think you can't straighten ammo on anything but the H&H I have straightened out crooked ammo for years on the Sinclair and Neco, why does people think you need the Hornaday or H&H for that task?
Wayne.

 

[BoydAllen]

The H&H is for loaded ammo, and does an excellent job in that application. It also has the advantage of covering a very large range of calibers, and is built like a brick. Years back, I took one to a benchrest match and had no trouble straightening all of my rounds (that I was loading between matches, as is the custom) quickly to a TIR of about .00075. My feeling is that if your rounds need routine straightening, that your equipment needs attention. Over the years, I have checked friends' reloads to see if their dies were producing good results. If they did, I would tell them that as long as the dies were kept clean and used properly, that I could see no reason for the numbers to change.

 

[bozo699]

Mac,

When I stated I felt it was of lesser importance, you must know we use custom dies that FIT custom chambers. When I run normal tensions, run out is pretty well non existent.

Another feature I see on a few is a device to "correct" run out..... I don't feel this needs to be a deciding factor for you. I sometimes have a tad over 1 thou on loaded stuff, thumbs and fingers work for me.

Tom

A big plus one!
Wayne.

 

[BaconFat]

Bacon fat,
I use a concentricity gauge to see if I have runout, if I do I find out why and fix it, by straightening bent ammo you have fixed nothing! I don't know why people think you can't straighten ammo on anything but the H&H I have straightened out crooked ammo for years on the Sinclair and Neco, why does people think you need the Hornaday or H&H for that task?
Wayne.

I agree straightening bent ammo fixes nothing. My problem is, because I'm new at this, I don't know where to look for the source of the problem. I use a Forster FL or a Forster Bushing Neck Die for sizing. For bullet seating I use either a Wilson inline micrometer die or a Forster Ultra micrometer seating die. I attribute most of my problem on user error since I have good equipment.

 

[bozo699]

Bacon fat,
I use a concentricity gauge to see if I have runout, if I do I find out why and fix it, by straightening bent ammo you have fixed nothing! I don't know why people think you can't straighten ammo on anything but the H&H I have straightened out crooked ammo for years on the Sinclair and Neco, why does people think you need the Hornaday or H&H for that task?
Wayne.

I agree straightening bent ammo fixes nothing. My problem is, because I'm new at this, I don't know where to look for the source of the problem. I use a Forster FL or a Forster Bushing Neck Die for sizing. For bullet seating I use either a Wilson inline micrometer die or a Forster Ultra micrometer seating die. I attribute most of my problem on user error since I have good equipment.

Baconfat,
What is your chamber neck size? and what is your loaded round neck size? you are probably sizing to much all at once, those are pretty good dies for factory dies so find out, if your sizing your neck much more then .003 you might do it in multiple steps if necessary with your bushing die. lets start with that and go from there.
Wayne.

 

[BoydAllen]

In the case of thin necked 6ppcs and flat base bullets,with pressure rings, the situation is much different than with thicker necks and different bullets. Small adjustments can be made without doing much deforming, the bullet sort of pivots on the pressure ring, and the stretching seems to fall within the elastic limit of the brass. I do limit my self to a finite number of attempts to correct, so as not to loosen neck tension. Admittedly, shooting outdoors, under less than perfect conditions, evaluating the effectiveness of correcting .002 runout to .00075 may be nigh on impossible. But that could be said of any number of small things that we do with an eye toward producing better ammunition. I will say that I have seen no indication that harm was being done. On the other hand, I have tried to straighten a few factory rounds, and it did not take long for me to be cured of that. I seemed very much like I was trying to bend the case at the neck shoulder junction with a tool that was designed for more sensitive work.

 

[Shynloco]

Boyd,
We need to keep "factory ammo" out of any serious discussion about the concentricity of finished loads. I haven't bought any factory loaded ammo in years for the very reason you gave. More recently, my son bought some across the counter 30-06 ammo for desert shooting and plinking. I won't name the brand, but it wasn't the cheapest by any means. I ran some of the rounds through my Hornady guage (wanted to be nice and not forced to puke) and I couldn't believe the variance and how bad those things were by our standards. I didn't even bother trying using my Sinclair gauge because of the mess I would have created all over my reloading bench.

Alex

 

[BaconFat]

Baconfat,
What is your chamber neck size? and what is your loaded round neck size? you are probably sizing to much all at once, those are pretty good dies for factory dies so find out, if your sizing your neck much more then .003 you might do it in multiple steps if necessary with your bushing die. lets start with that and go from there.
Wayne.

My chamber neck size is approximately .344 in my Savage 12 in .308. This is based German Salazar's article on neck turning where he said to measure a fired case, which are consistently .343, and add .001 to get close. I have been sizing my necks in one step, so that practice will be eliminated and I'll change to a multi step sizing routine. Now this brings up another question. I have been sizing my necks based on the standard formula to determine what bushing to use. Thing is then my loaded rounds are .333 and I've read you should be within .008 of your chamber size. So should I resize the necks to .336 and have slightly less tension on the bullet?

I apologize to the OP. I didn't mean to steer this thread off course, so I will now Zip It.

 

[mac86951]

Boyd,

Built like a brick is one thing my neco is not... but then again, they say I could break an anvil.

Tom

Good point Tom, and I can also break and anvil, but just by smiling at it...

I'm not to the point of custom chambers yet... and I'm using some hand-me-down dies from RCBS for my 222, 30-06 and .223, all of which are "factory" chambers. Again, for now I'd like to monitor my process from start to finish. My .223 is the closest to "custom" being an off the shelf WOA Wylde chamber. The others I'm accurizing, or I should say trying to load accurate for the .222 which is already a tac driver.

I also agree with trying to fix loaded ammo. I'd rather measure along the way and see what I can do to reduce the issues, and/or get a new die. the AGI videos from Darrel Holland are a great help in working with the dies I have, but of course without any measurement verification it means I must be loading PERFECT ammo now right? I don't expect the "tuning" to make much of a difference on anything but the 30-06, but I'll be happily surprised when/if I'm wrong.

-Mac

 

[mac86951]

Baconfat,
What is your chamber neck size? and what is your loaded round neck size? you are probably sizing to much all at once, those are pretty good dies for factory dies so find out, if your sizing your neck much more then .003 you might do it in multiple steps if necessary with your bushing die. lets start with that and go from there.
Wayne.

My chamber neck size is approximately .344 in my Savage 12 in .308. This is based German Salazar's article on neck turning where he said to measure a fired case, which are consistently .343, and add .001 to get close. I have been sizing my necks in one step, so that practice will be eliminated and I'll change to a multi step sizing routine. Now this brings up another question. I have been sizing my necks based on the standard formula to determine what bushing to use. Thing is then my loaded rounds are .333 and I've read you should be within .008 of your chamber size. So should I resize the necks to .336 and have slightly less tension on the bullet?

I apologize to the OP. I didn't mean to steer this thread off course, so I will now Zip It.

Also no problem Bacon! My 30-06 fired measures .340, and loaded measures .334. This puts me in the "window" of ok I guess, but not sure what I can do to narrow that gap if needed. Neck turning will only open it up.

-Mac

 

[Lapua40X]

I shy away from concentricity gauges that reference off case center (e.g. Hornady) because any point to point circumference variance in the radius of the case cannot be accounted for and even though the case neck may check out as "concentric" if the case neck itself isn't perfectly centered on the body of the case the final result is still misalignment in the chamber.
So .... I prefer concentricity gauges like the Accuracy One or Sinclair where the case is supported by rollers or bearings. First choice - Accuracy One. Second choice, Sinclair. I am not a fan of either the Hornady or the H&H models.

 

[savageshooter86]

I purchased the Forster concentricity gauge and it seems to be very easy to use.
http://www.forsterproducts.com/store.asp?pid=24826&catid=19938