COMPRESSED LOAD CONFUSION

[Kittitas George]

For the first loads in my 40X Rem. 222 with a new Shilen barrel, I started with new Win. brass, w/22gr. of Benchmark, up to 23.5 gr. Now I'm looking for all the accuracy this gun has to offer. I'd like to shoot the 40gr. V-Max. So I started with H4895 @ 23 gr., the neck was half full. The Speer book (#13) says 24grs. would be 'compressed. I've never shot compressed loads, so I'm a little 'goosey'. Then I got out the IMR 4198, many recommendations, 17.6 gr. are below the shoulder, 20gr. are at the bottom of the neck, 20.5 gr. (max Horn) compressed. Next was H335, 23gr. @ the shoulder break, 24gr @ the bottom of the neck, 25.8 full neck, compressed. Hornaday book list 26.6gr. as max. How much compression is reasonable? How are they filling the cases? I've read about 'drop tubes' and using an electric razor to vibrate the powder, I don't want to do that. My goal is to shoot tight groups (minute of gopher) and have a little speed on the bullet. I've been shooting quite a few years and never ran into this, so the cautious thing is ask for help. I know I can't get the speed of a 223 or 22-50, that's not what I'm looking for. I looked thru some old posts on compressed loads, it mentioned a few times that compressed powder can push the bullet out of the case, another problem I don't need.






rem

 

[6bra1k]

well i'll start by being a wet blanket. buy lapua brass if you truly want best potential.
two) books are guidelines..THEY ARE NOT BIBLES. they did not test with your rifle nor your lot of components. what twist is your bbl. ya need 14 or more with 40's
simple wind flags of surveyors tape on sticks so you can see whats happening.
maybe a very lite trigger so you are not forcing the trigger while trying to stay on target.
small compression and low neck tension is not an issue, lots of compression is.try for stuff that is 102% capacity or less.
keep good records

 

[6MMsteve]

why shoot compressed loads if it shoots bugholes without compressed loads

 

[RegionRat]

I will make a suggestion on how to study a case fill situation with different powders and bullets, as compared to advice on specific recipes.

To begin, you may or may not know your optimum seating depth for a given bullet, and you may not know the best powder. To establish boundaries, it would be good to understand the case fill situation for various bullets at seating depths.

Take a virgin case, and a once fired case if you have one, and open the neck with a mandrel until a bullet will barely slide in and out by hand without drama. Using your comparator tools and your candidate bullets and powders, fill the case near max in small increments of say 0.1 grains at a time, and record the CBTO length with your comparators and record. Once the bullet base is up into the neck, the relationship has an inflection point.

You can experiment with a drop tube, vibration from a toothbrush, or nothing at all but a little shake or twist of the bullet. Sometimes, a little twist or tapping will allow the bullet to settle much deeper, sometimes with other powders it just hits a wall and nothing you do will allow it to go deeper.

This exercise will give you the background of what to expect in terms of combinations of bullets and powers versus case fill and seating depth and when it would be difficult to seat due to compression.

With flat or bevel base bullets that are not intended to go down into the case past the neck-shoulder junction, you don't worry about the difference between the flow of powder around the bullet base, but then you will also see that the difference between loose and compacted powder can be stiff.

This way, when you run your load development tests, for a given seating depth, you will know ahead of time when you should expect trouble from seating into compression.

 

[Jager]

When I'm starting load development for a hunting gun with a new-to-me cartridge/caliber/bullet and I'm contemplating powder choice, I look for a powder that provides acceptable pressure/velocity at 100% case fill at a nominal COAL that clears my magazine. There's nothing particularly magical about that 100% case fill, other than it being the demarc between loose powder charges below it, and compressed loads above it... but, more often than not, accurate groups - if they're going to be found at all - will be found in that neighborhood.

With that powder in hand, I then run a ladder starting below that 100% case fill (uncompressed loads) and ending somewhat above it (compressed loads). Powders behave differently under compression - an extruded, stick powder can be compressed more than a ball powder; and a long-cut powder can be compressed more than a short-cut, for instance - so I don't have a hard and fast answer on how much compression I'll allow. But as a general rule, I'm comfortable going to about 104% case fill.

Assuming I've found something promising in that powder charge ladder (usually the case), a seating depth ladder and then a neck tension test follow.

I never seat into the lands with a hunting gun, nor do I use really light neck tension - two qualities that are very common with competition guns. A varmint gun, though, sometimes splits the difference... it's used in the field so cartridge integrity is still important, but it's frequently set up in and used from one spot, so some of those competition ingredients can be brought to bear.

Key to everything is knowing the case volume (measured in water) of your particular lot of brass, fired, but not yet resized. My present lot of .222 Lapua brass measures 28.0 gr.

IMR 4198 would give you 100% case fill at 21.06 gr with 42K psi and pushing towards 3400 fps with that 40 gr V-Max at a 2.130 COAL. Not a bad place to start.

Keep us posted on how that new Shilen barrel shoots. The triple deuce is a lovely bit of magic.

 

[Webster]

For the first loads in my 40X Rem. 222 with a new Shilen barrel, I started with new Win. brass, w/22gr. of Benchmark, up to 23.5 gr. Now I'm looking for all the accuracy this gun has to offer. I'd like to shoot the 40gr. V-Max. So I started with H4895 @ 23 gr., the neck was half full. The Speer book (#13) says 24grs. would be 'compressed. I've never shot compressed loads, so I'm a little 'goosey'. Then I got out the IMR 4198, many recommendations, 17.6 gr. are below the shoulder, 20gr. are at the bottom of the neck, 20.5 gr. (max Horn) compressed. Next was H335, 23gr. @ the shoulder break, 24gr @ the bottom of the neck, 25.8 full neck, compressed. Hornaday book list 26.6gr. as max. How much compression is reasonable? How are they filling the cases? I've read about 'drop tubes' and using an electric razor to vibrate the powder, I don't want to do that. My goal is to shoot tight groups (minute of gopher) and have a little speed on the bullet. I've been shooting quite a few years and never ran into this, so the cautious thing is ask for help. I know I can't get the speed of a 223 or 22-50, that's not what I'm looking for. I looked thru some old posts on compressed loads, it mentioned a few times that compressed powder can push the bullet out of the case, another problem I don't need.






rem

Check out the Nosler website loading chart. I would have IMR4198 as my first choice for powder. Great speed less case fill.

222 Remington Load Data

Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.

www.nosler.com

 

[jepp2]

How are they filling the cases?

As mentioned by others, powder choice in the 222 is important to stay away from compressed loads. Some book loads will be spilling over the case mouth.

But to address your question. What I do when I dump my powder into the funnel on the case, I don't just dump it all at once. This creates a pile in the funnel and results in the tallest height of powder in the case. Instead I let it flow out of the pan so it hits the funnel and goes around the funnel in a circular pattern (similar to water draining from a bathtub) into the case. For near 100% fill loads this gains me quite a bit by allowing the powder to settle. I've never used a drop tube as my setup that would be a pain.

 

[AlNyhus]

There's a difference between 'compressed' and 'compacted'. -Al

 

[JEFFPPC]

Maybe a .222mag would have worked, or a .223.

 

[Kittitas George]

Maybe a .222mag would have worked, or a .223.

The rifle was a 222 Mag, components availability were the problem. I've had a 223 and 22-50, those were not options I wanted. The case capacity was not anticipated.

 

[Kittitas George]

As mentioned by others, powder choice in the 222 is important to stay away from compressed loads. Some book loads will be spilling over the case mouth.

But to address your question. What I do when I dump my powder into the funnel on the case, I don't just dump it all at once. This creates a pile in the funnel and results in the tallest height of powder in the case. Instead I let it flow out of the pan so it hits the funnel and goes around the funnel in a circular pattern (similar to water draining from a bathtub) into the case. For near 100% fill loads this gains me quite a bit by allowing the powder to settle. I've never used a drop tube as my setup that would be a pain.

Thanks for the response, I will try 'swirling' the powder thru the funnel.

Check out the Nosler website loading chart. I would have IMR4198 as my first choice for powder. Great speed less case fill.

222 Remington Load Data

Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.

www.nosler.com

I have a Nosler manual, but will check out the website, thank you.

 

[Kittitas George]

well i'll start by being a wet blanket. buy lapua brass if you truly want best potential.
two) books are guidelines..THEY ARE NOT BIBLES. they did not test with your rifle nor your lot of components. what twist is your bbl. ya need 14 or more with 40's
simple wind flags of surveyors tape on sticks so you can see whats happening.
maybe a very lite trigger so you are not forcing the trigger while trying to stay on target.
small compression and low neck tension is not an issue, lots of compression is.try for stuff that is 102% capacity or less.
keep good records

Thank you for the response. I know the books are guide lines, and I have a few hundred new Lapua brass. I was hoping to get close to a good load with the new Win. brass. What I didn't expect was a "starting" load of powder to be up into the neck. No previous experience with that, then the manual saying a a few grains more would be "compressed".

 

[Kittitas George]

When I'm starting load development for a hunting gun with a new-to-me cartridge/caliber/bullet and I'm contemplating powder choice, I look for a powder that provides acceptable pressure/velocity at 100% case fill at a nominal COAL that clears my magazine. There's nothing particularly magical about that 100% case fill, other than it being the demarc between loose powder charges below it, and compressed loads above it... but, more often than not, accurate groups - if they're going to be found at all - will be found in that neighborhood.

With that powder in hand, I then run a ladder starting below that 100% case fill (uncompressed loads) and ending somewhat above it (compressed loads). Powders behave differently under compression - an extruded, stick powder can be compressed more than a ball powder; and a long-cut powder can be compressed more than a short-cut, for instance - so I don't have a hard and fast answer on how much compression I'll allow. But as a general rule, I'm comfortable going to about 104% case fill.

Assuming I've found something promising in that powder charge ladder (usually the case), a seating depth ladder and then a neck tension test follow.

I never seat into the lands with a hunting gun, nor do I use really light neck tension - two qualities that are very common with competition guns. A varmint gun, though, sometimes splits the difference... it's used in the field so cartridge integrity is still important, but it's frequently set up in and used from one spot, so some of those competition ingredients can be brought to bear.

Key to everything is knowing the case volume (measured in water) of your particular lot of brass, fired, but not yet resized. My present lot of .222 Lapua brass measures 28.0 gr.

IMR 4198 would give you 100% case fill at 21.06 gr with 42K psi and pushing towards 3400 fps with that 40 gr V-Max at a 2.130 COAL. Not a bad place to start.

Keep us posted on how that new Shilen barrel shoots. The triple deuce is a lovely bit of magic.

Our 'start up methods are very similar. I never seat bullets into the lands, magazine length isn't an issue, the rifle is a single shot. I 'average' a starting load using several manuals for the powders I have available. What thru me a curve ball is having a "starting load" filling the neck, when the manual says a few more grains will be a 'compressed load'. I'll try IMR in a Lapua case, reduced 10% to begin, then 'work up', that 3400fps is very acceptable. Thank you for the response and info.

 

[jepp2]

I was hoping to get close to a good load with the new Win. brass.

I keep a record of the water capacity of the fired cases for my rifles (use in Quickload and GRT). My numbers are W-W Super 27.2 gr, Lapua 27.6 gr, so with the batches I used, I did gain some extra capacity with the Lapua.

 

[MikeT49]

Try using a electric tooth brush with the back against the side of a case. Works great with larger cases, haven't tried it with small cases. Still should get the powder to settle as much as is possible.

 

[Kittitas George]

I keep a record of the water capacity of the fired cases for my rifles (use in Quickload and GRT). My numbers are W-W Super 27.2 gr, Lapua 27.6 gr, so with the batches I used, I did gain some extra capacity with the Lapua.

I have some new Lapua, I'll give it a try, .4 is quite a gain with that small case. Thank you for the help and response.

 

[Kittitas George]

Try using a electric tooth brush with the back against the side of a case. Works great with larger cases, haven't tried it with small cases. Still should get the powder to settle as much as is possible.

I tried the vibration trick many years ago with a 22-50, not something I want to do again. I can't imagine reloading 400 or 500 rounds for a season of gopher shooting and vibrating each one. Thank you for responding and the suggestion.

 

[DLT]

why shoot compressed loads if it shoots bugholes without compressed loads

Correct. I’d sure try it first

 

[Kittitas George]

As mentioned by others, powder choice in the 222 is important to stay away from compressed loads. Some book loads will be spilling over the case mouth.

But to address your question. What I do when I dump my powder into the funnel on the case, I don't just dump it all at once. This creates a pile in the funnel and results in the tallest height of powder in the case. Instead I let it flow out of the pan so it hits the funnel and goes around the funnel in a circular pattern (similar to water draining from a bathtub) into the case. For near 100% fill loads this gains me quite a bit by allowing the powder to settle. I've never used a drop tube as my setup that would be a pain.

I just finished loading 25 cases using IMR 4198, I used 40 V-MAX bullets, Rem 71/2 primers. I started at 19.5 gr., then 19.8, 20.1, 20.4 and 20.7 gr. I loaded 5 of each, 'swirling' the powder into the case. All are pretty much at the neck/ shoulder junction, still room left before compression. Interpolating the velocity I'm in that 3400 area where I want to be. 'Swirling' the powder worked just as you said, what a great tip, thank you. Hopefully I can get to the range in the next day or two. I'll get back to you after I go to the range.

 

[Kittitas George]

I keep a record of the water capacity of the fired cases for my rifles (use in Quickload and GRT). My numbers are W-W Super 27.2 gr, Lapua 27.6 gr, so with the batches I used, I did gain some extra capacity with the Lapua.

The weather changed and I got to the range yesterday, no wind, temps in the lower 80's. I shot 40gr. V-Max, Rem. 7 1/2 primers, starting w/ 19.5 of IMR 4198. As you suggested I 'swirled' the powder in to the cases. The first two five shot groups were a fat inch. I ran a wet patch of Bore Tech Eliminator, followed by 3 dry patches thru the bore after five shots. The third group measured just under .4 for 5` shots. I fired two more groups of 5 but didn't clean the bore, they opened up a little, I don't have an alibi. Sometimes the groups were vertically dispersed and sometimes horizontally dispersed. Maybe some sighting error. I was never 'off' an inch, so I would have had some dead gophers. I've got the start I needed, thanks to the help of all you kind people. I should be able to tighten those groups up some to MOA in stead of minute of gopher. I had a really good day at the range, met a young couple sighting in w/ muzzled loaders for deer hunting and a young man shooting a 300 Blackout at 450 yard steel target. Nice people with neat stuff.
Thanks for all the help!