competition rifles

[XTR]

Right now there is a lot of experimenting going on, esp. in F-TR. Guys are running all kinds of powder, bullet, and brass combinations to try to find something that works just a little better. Everyone knows that some folks are playing with heavy bullets, but the particulars are still pretty sketchy. I've noticed that many/most of them are pretty quiet about what they are trying right now. Think about it, if you just spent a thousand dollars on components to try something different I don't think you'd want to run out and give it away. Some of these guys are playing the game to win, not just to participate.

Two yrs ago everyone was running the 185s and Varget; there weren't many secrets, and in a yr or two the formulas will be worked out and everything will be out there again, but for now I think we are in a transition zone.

 

[Hombre0321]

Right now there is a lot of experimenting going on, esp. in F-TR. Guys are running all kinds of powder, bullet, and brass combinations to try to find something that works just a little better. Everyone knows that some folks are playing with heavy bullets, but the particulars are still pretty sketchy. I've noticed that many/most of them are pretty quiet about what they are trying right now. Think about it, if you just spent a thousand dollars on components to try something different I don't think you'd want to run out and give it away. Some of these guys are playing the game to win, not just to participate.

Two yrs ago everyone was running the 185s and Varget; there weren't many secrets, and in a yr or two the formulas will be worked out and everything will be out there again, but for now I think we are in a transition zone.

XTR, I think you are comparing Apples to Walnut trees ( I get tired to the apples and orange thing). There are no equipment lists in F-Class, as far as I know. So F-Class guys keeping things close to the vest is a completely different thing than lying on a equipment list, that doesn't exist.

Also your comment "Some of these guys are playing the game to win, not just to participate." should give us all pause as well. I certainly am one of those playing to win, as is one of the fine gentlemen of the game Danny Biggs. Ask him sometimes a question or two about his shooting style, loading, or components I think you will find him very free with his advice and comments as I have.

When did the sport become win at any costs? I want to win you betcha I do, but I want to win on the day my competition is at his best, best equipment, best reloads and having a fine day reading the wind. Win on that day and you have done something you can be proud of. Win any other way and for me it is a "Hollow Victory". But that just me...

Roland

 

[savageshooter86]

well I was just thinking lists like these for any type of competitive shooting would be nice for newbies looking to get in the game. They could look and see what most people are using so they don't go buy the wrong components and have to lose $$ and buy twice. Like buying a 3-9x scope for 1000 yards or a sporter barrel for F class shooting. I just think it would help.

And I know you can compete with the less expensive optics and stocks/actions too

 

[Bradsb]

I have only been shooting short range BR for a couple of years now. When I was getting started it was nice to have the equipment lists to look at. When you are new every expensive purchase you make is hard to justify and it is nice to be able to justify those purchases by seeing that it is similar equipment to what the top shooters are using.

It has also been my experience that most shooters if asked are willing to share any details about loads or equipment even though they are still playing to win. I'm pretty positive the best shooters win because the shoot better and read wind better. Not because they have better loads or better equipment.

I do wish there was better equipment list out there for F class and even Tactical matches. It is hard to know where to start when you don't know what others are using.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Did you want me to load the ammunition for you and aim the rifle also?

I know it's cold but we all went through the discovery process. Please tell me exactly why everyone should tell you exactly what they use in competition now?

I spent a lot of time, money and energy getting my equipment to where I wanted it to be and to be able to get halfway decent scores every once in a while.

I'm happy to answer questions at matches, but published lists are something else.

 

[savageshooter86]

I suppose no one gave you any pointers or advice along the way? What is the difference in giving advice/pointers at a match VS doing so on a published list that those matches would collect and provide online? Some people(me for one) can not go to a lot of matches. The closest match to me is 4 hours drive round trip and no big matches are even held in my state

**no I don't want you to load my ammo or aim the rifle. That and wind reading are the stuff that wins matches not pointing someone in the right direction as to what stock design works better or what scope is a good value.**

 

[aj300mag]

pointing someone in the right direction as to what stock design works better or what scope is a good value.**

I'm not sure how you intend to get that information off of an equipment list. For F-Open you could check out match results from 600/1000 yard Benchrest matches. They generally contain equipment list. As far as F-TR the equipment is quite diversified. Choosing to build a rifle because that's the equipment that the "national champ" uses might not fit your needs. Would you drive a car because that's what the NASCAR points leader drives or would you test drive one first?

 

[savageshooter86]

I see both sides here. If everyone is using stocks with a repeating design and some newbie thinks that getting a hunting stock would be best for competition, then this is how it could help them go in a better direction

The NASCAR thing, I would know not to be even considering a Pinto if they were all driving what they drive.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I suppose no one gave you any pointers or advice along the way? What is the difference in giving advice/pointers at a match VS doing so on a published list that those matches would collect and provide online? Some people(me for one) can not go to a lot of matches. The closest match to me is 4 hours drive round trip and no big matches are even held in my state

**no I don't want you to load my ammo or aim the rifle. That and wind reading are the stuff that wins matches not pointing someone in the right direction as to what stock design works better or what scope is a good value.**

You supposed correctly; I got no advice, no pointers. I was the first F-TR shooter at the club and for years I labored alone; I was reliably funding the winners at every match. While everybody else was shooting their 6mm or 6.5-284, I was pushing my .223 Rems. Then one day, I got my rifle rebarreled with a long Krieger and just worked on my loads. I tried all sorts of stuff until it started working for me, there was no one to ask.

We gathered a lot of F-TR shooters along the way and I helped a whole bunch of them cut through the crap. I even had articles published where I recounted my experiences.

For my latest rifle, I asked people whose opinion I respect for some brands of action, trigger and stock, but the barrel specs and ammunition were all mine.

Lately as Long Range match director at Bayou Rifles, I changed the way we squad the shooters. Where before we did thusly: sling shooters, F-openers and then F-trashers. I now place the f-trashers next to the slingers because they have a lot more in common and we discuss loads, bullets and barrels in the pits or on the line.

 

[XTR]

When it comes to rifles and gear, that's pretty much available for anyone who will research, or if they are lazy they can start 3 dozen threads.

Scopes, get a NF 12-42 with a NP2DD, if you can't afford it get a Sightron 10-50 with a FCH, got more money than Bill Gates, get a March. That's easy too.

When it comes to loads, what I learned 3 yrs ago still works, 185 Bergers and 44.* varget seated 0.010 off the lands. That recipe is no secret and has probably won more matches in the last 3 yrs than any other.

Reloading process, it's all out there

That said, when it comes to experiments and testing with barrel length and different loads/bullets, I'm going to sit on that for a while. In the last three and a half months I've tested three (3) barrel lengths, three (3) powders, three (3) primers, two (2) types of brass, and three (3) bullets (actually 5 but I never really worked on two of them much) for F-TR. My rifle has been back to the smith so often even my wife knows where to pick it up. I've got data that I know tells me a better answer but I haven't compared it to other data that I had that sent me down that path. There are notes that need to be compared. Any idea how hard it is to track down reloading supplies lately? How much rage time to do OCWs on that many combinations then go back and do seating depth and side by sides? Not to mention I built a 223 for 600 yards. Oh yea, there are no tables to start from on most of this stuff. You load till you get pressure and then throw away the brass that won't go back in the shell plate..

Some of what I've learned I've mentioned to people I shoot with, but no, I'm not giving that away just yet.

Edit:

And in the end none of that will make a bit of difference if the guy behind the rifle is not on the wind, because nothing, no F-TR load, will hold the 10-ring if you miss a one MPH letoff and hold center. It's all to feed my OCD looking for fractions of an inch to try pick up a point here and there.

 

[savageshooter86]

Thanks for the post. I will dig deeper. Found a few articles last night late about the set ups.

 

[XTR]

Thanks for the post. I will dig deeper. Found a few articles last night late about the set ups.

If you are shooting F-TR it's really straight forward, there is no secret weapon. You can win with any action. It has been done. Custom actions are nice, they make you happy to own them, but in the 1000 yard HP game they don't make a lot of difference in your score. Get what ever you can afford. Jim won with a Savage last yr, I have a Defiance and a Remington 700, I can't tell the difference other than the Defiance is single shot and stainless and prettier.

Barrels, this is the part that can make or break your gun. Any of the major cut rifled manufacturers makes good barrels. I run Kriegers, but I don't think it makes a difference one way or the other. Heavy Palma contour, 30" long, st least a 1:11, if you think you will ever want to run over 200gr bullets get a 1:10. Plan to use a barrel a yr, understand that the lead time on barrels is about 9 months. (so order now for next yr, I need to remind myself of that)

Stocks, personal choice. I have a rifle that has won matches built on a McM A5, and I have one built on a PR&T F-TR lowboy, I really like the PR&T. Target stocks are a better choice than tactical stocks for target shooting, (how hard was that to figure out)

Scopes, as I said above, get a 12-42 NXS or BR with an NP-2DD reticle and get on with shooting. Mount it on at least a 20 MOA rail, mine are on 30s. I run NF ultra light rings.

Bullets and loads, if you are in here dithering about parts you don't need to worry about what you are loading because your wind reading isn't good enough for it to make a difference. Last yr I shot Hornady 178s in club matches and practice, it is a good bullet, it loads about the same as a Berger 185 and it costs about 20¢ per shot less. Putting more shots on target will make you better than any bullet out there.

Berger 185s Juggs or OTMs, same bullet different box, load them over Varget and load for about 2730 to 2750FPS and you are golden, the shoot great, I prefer to shoot the 178 Hornady in practice because they save me about $10 or $20 a session.

Rear bag, probably will cost you more points than anything else in your kit till you figure it out. Which bag depends on you and what you like. It is way more important than your bipod, not which one but how you use it, and I heard that from Danny Biggs before I learned it for myself. (yes Hombre0321, I shoot with him too)

Bipod, pick one of the dedicated F-TR ones, they are all good.

Mat, mine came from Midway, now it's got a big ugly hole in it so my rear bag rides on the ground and not on the mat.

Spotting scope, better is better, better sees mirage better, I use an old Leica 77, still cost more than my NF.


See up there where I wrote target stocks are better than tactical stocks, target rifles are better than tactical rifles. You can play all day with a 24 inch barrel, I did my first year, but the wind is going to have it's way with you.

What else do you need to know? I've seen your posts all over this site. You should have enough information to make educated decisions at this point and should already know everything I just wrote.

 

[savageshooter86]

XTR- I do. This post was just wandering if there were list out there for new shooters in the game. Not me personally.

I am running Sightron SIII 10-50 scope, Savage action, Rifle Basic 2 trigger, 178 BTHP over Varget

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I wonder why you do so much wandering.

 

[M14AMU]

In the final analysis......if the truth be known....100% of the rifles on the line would 'out-shoot' 100% of the competitors so what it boils down to.....it doesn't make a 'hoot 'n hells' difference what equipment/loads are used, for in the finality the winner will be the individual who has taken the time to expend as many rounds downrange as possible, under many varying conditions and learning exactly what his rifle is capable of on any given day or condition!!

 

[campman08]

FWIW, as a new shooter, I like the idea of knowing what the top competitors shoot. But I have to admit I've learned a lot just from shooting matches and talking with more experienced shooters. In Houston where I shoot, everyone has been very willing to talk about and show me their rigs. Heck, even Bayou Shooter let me spend a few minutes with his rifle after a match ! That reminds me - thanks Denys, it convinced me to want the PR&T F T/R stock!

Alex