Competition BR Loading - Newer Stuff

[Cheechako]

JB
I can cover most of the items in competition loading for short range BR purposes. But what do LR benchrest guys do to prepare for their competitions. How do you do Load Development. Do you guys practice with wind flags. What you guys do at 600 & 1000 yds is new to most of us. Give the guys an idea how you load for competition.
Stephen Perry

Stephen

I just saw this post and thought I'd add my comments since I shoot both long range and point bl, errrr, short range Bencrest. This is how I do it but others may have different procedures.

With my short range background, my initial steps are identical to how I load for 100 and 200 yards. After all, if it works there it should work for any distance. Because long range brass is usually not of the same high quality as LAPUA 220 Russian or 6BR, I start by sorting brass, by weight, to eliminate that odd case or three. I uniform flash holes and primer pockets, turn necks, and fire form,if it's a wildcat) using the standard methods. I like to have a minimum of 200 cases for each barrel.

Sorry guys, but I do not weigh or sort bullets in any way whatsoever. Right out of that Berger, BIB, or Sierra box is good enough for me. I use only fresh powder and primers, not something from the last century.

For load development I shoot at 100 and 200 yards using flags, chronographing at the same time. I give the greatest value to group size and not low ES, SD, although small groups together with low SD are certainly a bonus. I set a minimum acceptable velocity depending on the yardage, bullet weight, and case capacity. Average group sizes at or below 1/4 MOA I consider acceptable. Except for my 6PPC 600 yard load which has to shoot as good as my 100 yard benchrest load. Fine tuning by seating depth is the last step although I have found that, with the more violent cartridges, it seldom results in any improvement over "touching" or "jam". On some of my rifles I also fine tune using a 3 action screw set-up and/or by primer type and brand.

Now is where methods of different shooters begin to vary. Since I do not have access to a range over 300 yards my final testing is restricted to that distance. In fact, I usually do that at Ben Avery. If things are still good at that distance the best I can do is call it good and take the ammo to a match. In almost all cases, a load that is good at the short ranges will also perform at 600 and 1000 yards. At least that has been my experience.

Shooters who have access to a range with 600 and 1000 yard benches can do testing at those distances assuming they can find an able assistant to work the pits and a few hours of perfect or near perfect conditions. Frankly, unless the conditions are near perfect, I think 1000 yard testing is of questionable value. But since I don't do it myself I'm not the best person to comment on it's value.

Once I have what I think is the best load, I load for a match, usually waiting as long as I can so that the ammo is as fresh as possible on match day. I weigh each and every powder charge, and then weigh and sort the loaded rounds in 1/10 grain increments. All loading is done with custom made dies, usually a bushing neck sizer and straight line bullet seater. I load my 6PPC for 600 yards at the range in lots of 50 but the larger cartridges are loaded 150 to 200 at a time at home.

The last step is to slip the range officer a few bucks to get assigned to a bench out of the wind and then hope that the other guys have not offered him more.

An unexpected puff of wind or a full scale zephyr during your relay makes all this moot.

Ray

 

[StephenPerry]

As you can see from Ray's Post BR shooters work from some well grounded principles. For load development and practice in general wind flags are not an option but a necessity. Reason being if you shoot a good group without flags you are lucky and have no clue what was going on in front of your barrel. This is why BR Shooters like myself and others who consider computer BR a scam and will not Post shake their heads when reports come in by what I call nice guns but not of BR claim 1/4" groups some say all day from their Savages even out to 200 yds. Now I give some slack here but no Savage Bro or any factory Bro or custom rifle Bro ever came to San Gabriel to shoot one our 100 yd competitions in my 13 yrs. I had a standing offer of $500 to any of those dudes that could shoot a .25 agg or better. I shot the only .25 agg with my Comp 788 in 1993.
Maybe the kicker was the $100 bucks they would have had to put up. One of my buds shot a 3rd place with a 30 BR, not a .25 agg. That was the only 30 cal competing at San Gabriel in my 13 yrs there.
Read Ray's Post again especially the LR part. That's about as good as it get's. Next.
Stephen Perry

 

[StephenPerry]

Competition BR Loading Thread
This has been my favorite Thread I have written so far. Loading of cartridges is something that I would think everybody on the Web does. Most shooters compete somewhere if not against themselves. Benchrest loading takes the best out what industry makes and makes it better. Don't know too many that measure primers, mix powders, or measure bullets. Lot of loaders have the tools to do such but realize choosing what works for your barrel and budget lets one do what comes natural keep your eye on the prize. Funny is when a shooter gets it all together 1 week for a big win and they are not careful ends up grazing with the fat boys at the bottom of the score sheet next time out.
To avoid this up and down cycle keeping one's loading method consistent. Some shooters have short memories me being one. What you win with one week does not become recorded. One commonality among better BR shooters is the learning curve though it may have been longer/shorter for some they can feel when they are in the zone. Every loading step has been reduced to what works and any change in components gets a short window. They look for certain powders that peak with their barrels. Primers that have shown more than just promise. Bullets that they can go back to time and again. Cases that are prepared in their way. When the BR loader finds the right combination for those components they buy enough to last a season or 2. Some horde especially those that have been through the shortages before of the component they have chosen. Some horde alot.
I started writing this Thread in May of this year and don't see an end to it not as long as I'm around. Like to see more 6BR loading here. I can handle the PPC stuff but don't like to step on unknown turf. Big Al has been on here several times. All I ask is for all Posters to respect others views. This aint no chicken choking contest. The Theme is Competition BR Loading.
Stephen Perry

 

[Aussie_bob]

Well i am pretty new to BR loading but for the years that i did Rim-Fire BR i would stay an extra day and watch the center-Fire boys do their stuff check out what they used and how they went about it.
Then i read lots on here an seeing as how my main BR shooting was for score went the way of the 30BR and don`t regret it in the least. Learning by my mistakes in turning necks and other little things but enjoying it none the less have also shoot Groups against the 6PPC`s with out a lot of sucess as yet but hey havent been last just have to improve my wind reading and curb my impatience.
And i have also used the 30BR for 500m shooting takeing out a major Comp second time i had ever shot at 500m 1.75" group all in the ten ring also won Light gun overall.
Now the loading i did for the longer range was no different to short range my thinking is if you can get it as accurate as possable at 100/200 its got to be ok further out. I did weigh evey load to exact as i could and the breeze that day was constant for good periods i tried to be patient and shoot on that wind. I think loading whether it be short or long range should be as accurate as you can get out to 200/300m after that i think there is a lot of luck involved.
In the .7 of a second to 500m or the 1.5 seconds to 1000 yards the tinyest deviation at the start of that journey could be the downfall of a good days shooting.

 

[StephenPerry]

Aussie Bob
Sounds like you have a full plate. Your loading seems in good shape you might want to pick the few powders you like and stock up for future days. Each time you open a new powder weigh some charges you throw and adjust yout thrower to match the powder weight with the previous lot. Load powder by density not by volume.
You might try this, fill your powder bottle to the top then leave your funnel in the bottle half full of powder keeping adding powder to always leave the funnel with powder. This will keep a constant full bottle pressure and will keep your throws in the 0.0 to 0.1 range. I use my 3 1/2in diameter metal funnel which allows me to keep a couple ounces of powder on top of my full bottle at all times. Remember powder throwers operate on the gravity feed principle so they rely on the weight of the powder to compact each and every throw. If you let your powder bottle get empty into the bottom 1/3 area you are doing an injustice to a fine thrower that is trying to give you consistent throws.
I hate new powder bottles and drop tubes. You need to break them in for proper use later. Wash them in a dishwater solution and after dry say a couple days later start running powder through both until they start to color or haze in the case of the drop tubes. This coating of powder tailings will ensure slick powder throwing.
Bob are there any Belding & Mull throwers around down under. They are very desireable as a collector item and operate as well as a thrower can do.
Stephen Perry

 

[USAPatriot]

Self
I bought a Bruno powder measure. Now don't get me wrong I have several great powder measures. I have a Culver/Nagy Lyman, a Jones Lyman, and a Redding, all served me well. But there is one secret to Lester's measure that I can't tell but have suspected for years. You won't find this in any other measure except maybe a Jones new model. You guys figure it out. Has nothing to do with the money or name.

I'm trying very hard to figure this one out. It's a coin toss here as to whether you're most interested in you lecturing or me learning. Maybe you can elaborate?

Comments always appreciated as long as they are not jabs.
Stephen Perry

Whoops. -Rod-

 

[12man]

Very informative especialy to a new guy like myself. Ihave reloaded for over 26 years now and thoroughly enjoy the satisfaction of hand tailored ammo for each specific rifle & uses. With in the last 5 years precision shooting, incredibly accurate rifles & almost bench quality loading has helped my shooting & hunting. My hunting rifles are built almost like a match gun ie: Quality barrels,brass tight chambers,pillar bedding, jewell triggers as much quality as I can put into reloads, minimal neck turns. Being new to the 6BR caliber & website, any info I can get on this cartridge or any other is highly appreciated. Bear in mind I am primarily a hunter not a Competitive Bench Rester. What type of Changes in grouping do you get by weight sorting or not weigh sorting your brass or bullets?

 

[StephenPerry]

Demetrios
I think you are doing a great job in your handloading. You don't need to be a benchrest shooter to know precision loading. Alot of the BR shooters have only been at it for a couple years and are learning themselves. Nobody knows all of it and you only need to do the fundamentals well to be successful at BR.
The answer to your sorting question is spend that time on the practice range. Sorting anything is like sorting apples the bad ones show up easy enough.
Stephen Perry

 

[12man]

I am now in the market for a quality Bullet seater for my 6BR. Looking at the Wilson Stainless Dies, is the micrometer top that Sinclair makes worth it. What about arbor presses? I seated 2 virgin brass with Hornady V max's to get initial dimensions. My virgin Lapua brass was resized, neck turned to .2625 & trimmed.Then neck sized with .261 bushing. My inside neck dimensions are .239 neck wall thickness .115 after turning. My Chamber is cut .265. I have yet to load bullets obviously waiting for a seating die everything sound right I hope. I really don't want to go back & neck turn 500 new cases again:,

 

[Forum Boss]

12man,

By all means get the Wilson stainless steel die with Micrometer top. It is a superb piece of kit that, in my experience, gives you the best feel and precision when seating bullets.

Neil Jones, Alan Warner and others can build you a custom seating die of equal quality, but for the price, the Wilson is a steal.

As for an Arbor Press, you can use a cheap unit from harbor Freight, or even just set the die up under a drill press,motor off of course). I have a K&M Arbor with bullet seating force gauge that I really like. But there are many other quality Arbors available starting at about $65. The K&M is somewhat unique in that it uses a bellville washer stack link to a dial gauge that measures how much force is required to seat your bullets.

 

[12man]

Thanks Thats what I'll Do is buy the wilson stainless die & micrometer top,Sinclair's was the one I was looking at unless theres a better) What about my neck turning numbers, or do I need to wait & load the turned brass.

 

[JamesnTN]

If you are sure on the .2625 brass size for your necks I would suggest a .260 and a.259 bushing for your sizing die.

Thats if I read your question correctly. If not ommit my comment

 

[12man]

Thanks I was told to get a couple of different size bushings until I figure neck Tension. I assumed .265 neck in the chamber, .002 clearance at minimum there is .263 plus a little fudge factor putting me at .2625 Thanks for the help

 

[tightneck]

The Wilson stainless seaters have a micrometer top built in. The older style Wilson seaters will take a Sinclair mic top. Go with the stainless die and you will have the best factory seater made IMHO.

 

[JamesnTN]

i typically have 3 bushing sizes to test with when I load develope for any given caliber.

What I do and have found it most useful is when you begin load developing load the exact same load for each size bushing.

For example 36.0 grns of bushings .259 .260 .261 36.3 grns of .259 .260 .261 and so on.

Load enough so you can get a test sesion in at one morning or afternoon at the range. This gives you a much greater idea od what the particular cartridge likes.

This also applies to trying different primers.

The idea is test these components all in the same conditions.
How many times have we thought we had found our pet load and go back the very next day only to find that it shot 4x larger than the day before?

Typically what I do is start at a bushing .002 under my loaded rnd size.

I will test one powder and 2 different primers I will work my loads up in .2 grn increments and shoot my test loads with the same charge but using 2 different primers on targets I make for myself side by side. Once I determine what primer and charge my rifle likes I then take that very load back off .2 grns and begin with bushing sizes and work back up to the original charge and go beyond that by .2 grns using the 3 different bushings so basically lets say my original load was 36.0 grns
I'll load 35.8 grns for 3 test shots x 3 bushing sizes for a total of 9 rnds fot eh one bushing size and same charge of powder. I then step up .2 grns to 36.0 and load 9 charges of this and then go to 36.2 grns and do the same.
All my testing is done for 3 shots and has worked well for me for many yrs. I can tell more on a 3 shot group than I can for 5 shots. I also shoot across a chronograph when testing.

You can do a search here and type in my name used and look for 6 Dasher results with BIB bullets or any result testing I had posted to get an idea of my methods.

 

[12man]

Thanks I will try that My neck was cut at .265 with PT&G Reamer. I have worked my virgin Lapua brass,flasholes, resized,neck turned trimmed to length, deburred) After turning the brass my necks are .2625, neck wall thickness is .115 Bullet diameter .243 adding these numbers gives me .265. Is my brass going to be to tight or do I need to turn a lttle more off. I just did 500 cases & not really looking forward to turning 595 cases again Thanks again

 

[JamesnTN]

If your chamber is .265 and a loaded rnd is also .265 that won't work.

you need min .002 clerance which a loaded rnd should measure out at .263.

set your turner to be tight onto a .010 feeler guage or a tad loose on a .009 and you'll be good to go.

 

[12man]

Thanks again thats what I was worried about, Still waiting on my rifle from the gunsmith. Originally was going to go no turn neck but he highly recommended the tight neck. He is a good smith, meticulous and always been up front. I respect his ideas & opinions so here I am, just new to this caliber & trying to get the best setup possible.

 

[Clarence]

Well now I just might like to get in here and ADD another process for discovery, just to show that there IS different process that work, this stuff is NOT cut in stone, nor is any method better than another.
Cases. I use lapua, I weight sort to within .5gr and will use this weight in one 60 shot box from light to heavy, I qualify the primer pockets, turn case necks, yes even on the Lapua.

Neck Tension. I use about .0005, just so the bullet may not be pulled with the fingers, seated longer than the Leade by .020, yes that is right .020 so the verry expensive Chamber does the work, I don't want that job. The qualifier is that THAT chamber is done properly and straight.
SD's & ES's. If one does the necessary work,barring powder/primer influences) the best grouping WILL have the better number for SD/ES, my loads will produce SD's of 6 to 9 and will shoot .3and 4's for 10 shots at 100 yards, out of the sling with IRON sights.

Bullets. Imeasure the base to Ogive and sort, then sort by weight, turn the Meplat true and have at it.

Paranoia? absolutely! what game do I play?? Palma
As to the throwing of the powder charge from ANY measure, NOT A CHANCE, everything is weighed, and did I mention that I shoot the Russian Powder/Russian Primers.
So all in all there is really NO absolute in development of the accurate ROUND for Bench or Long Range.

Clarence

 

[StephenPerry]

Shooters
Lots of great comments on this Competition BR Thread I wrote some time ago. I have changed a few things since my last Post.

Nielson Neck Turner & Case Lathe
I have had a Nielson Neck Turner since the 2003 Nats. Never used it before this year. The way I got it I was visiting George Kelbly at his small spread he takes to big Shoots. He saw me handling the Nielson turner and followed me putting it in my pocket. I told him all my money was committed to the Shoot. He said catch him the next time I saw him. The next time I saw him was at Raton last year. I put the money in his pocket. He asked me what the money was for I told him, he completely forgot. I have known George since 1977.
This year I bought a as new Nielson case lathe at Phoenix. Now I wanted to use the neck turner. I've always had great neck turners so this was not new to me. Neck turner and case lathe work well. I have already turned 3 sets of brass. Maybe a 22 neck turner later. I spun the brass and they checked out at +/-.000075 about what I get with my Jaco, Marquart, Miller turners.
I have no majic number I turn to. Consistency is trump here.

Powders & Primers
If you shoot short range you are probably looking for some N 133. You don't need to. Powders like H322, H335, 4895, 4198, 748, Varget, 2015, BL-C,2) will do just fine in small cartridges like the PPC and BR.
Primers are drying up in some areas. Here again buy what you can find. WSR is a good all-around primer and there are still Rem 7 1/2's around.

Cases
Seems some are having a hard time getting some Lapua cases. Remington, Federal, and Winchester will do fine in most cases. Gun shows will always have some of the hard to get stuff if you want to pay the prices.

Need to learn to improvise. If you have a couple cases of shotgun shells go shoot shotgun. Being around shooters is what is important. Leave your ego at home and go out and have fun.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR