competing in Fclass with electronic targets

[jelenko]

Rick,

I've spent many years in semiconductor sales. Your weasel wording of why you can give a price sounds just like a used car salesman.

You can't quote a price because you don't know the destination? For heavens sake man, give the price FOB the factory. Don't know how many monitors? Give the typical/recommended number.
Not sure if post sales training will be needed? Give me a break. What is common practice at the existing installation of etargets?

Your statement: "I'm not a good enough salesman, to look you in the eye, take you money, and give you something that I know is too inferior" - are you serious?

 

[Jay Christopherson]

As I said earlier - the question will be answered at Lodi. As I recall, Betamax was a "higher quality" technology as well. Rick - if I were you, I'd look closely at the list of shooters on this thread and consider what you hope to accomplish here by continuing. Because if it's alienating your potential customer base in the US, you're doing a great job so far.

 

[dbramley]

I understand the price battle. 4 vs 8 vs who knows what. What I bought and the 7 others that bought them at Ben Avery was influenced by having to take them down and store them every day that we shoot. Hex didn't fit the requirements of that simple task. The target cannot stay in place. I am happy to say most of the group bought what we thought made sense due to the constraints of the range and was priced within reason. There were many strings fired on a SMT before the 7 were purchased.

I think as SMT refines and moves forward they will make software upgrades so we can put them on our systems. SMT has been very responsive to our questions and problems to date.
Ask Dan Bramley if he is happy with the performance he seems to be able to hold the X ring from time to time. I believe he is shooting Lodi this fall.

John

Love u 2 John!

 

[Scott Harris]

Here are some photo's of the setup at Lodi taken today. Some down in pits and a relay that is not yet permanently mounted.

Hi Bob,

I'm an always-skeptical technology salesman, but THAT looks like a well-planned setup. Someone on the install team knows how to terminate cables properly. Are those steel uprights the sensors and are they fixed in place? Or are the sensors on the target....little hard to see. Is there any concern about those uprights being shot? With enough money and smarts, there is no question that amazingly reliable/accurate e-targets can be created and those Lodi first pics look impressive.

My doubts about the overall affordability of this path for the overall shooting community remain. But, hey, maybe we can reallocate some of that 10% federal sales tax on record guns & ammo sales.

thanks,
Scott

 

[spclark]

HEXTA targets are being used at various locations it seems.

Somebody (besides Rick 'Rusty', their Canadian distributor) here must have seen them, might have knowledge of what it takes to deploy each target system?

Are there any currently installed and in use here in the USA?

Stuff like:

How much does each target weigh?

Can a HEXTA target be fitted to commonly used target carriers here in the US?

Can someone tell me how many individuals are needed to mount a HEXTA target prior to use?

Any suggestion of the weight of a single target? Or physical size?

Even were a single system priced to an end-user be somewhere in the range of an SMT G2 system (which I doubt, at least until some kind of price range is quoted) no meaningful comparison can be made when practical considerations of what it takes to deploy a single target are being evaluated.

I've never seen one.

Nor have I seen a Konigsberg (sp?) system installed at CMP's Talledega range.

I saw an early SIUS/Ascor unit a few years (9?) ago being used by an Army Reserve member at WGC, liked what I saw but put off by the (then) $26,000 price quoted for a single user.

Until the SMT G2 system I bought late last year arrived, I'd neither seen nor used one.

My rationale for my purchase was: I'd read positive reports from users of their G1 system; the then-new G2 reportedly was easier to deploy as well as more robust. Price was somewhat lower also.

I was looking for a system that would permit me to practice solo at 200 - 1,000 yards. (Side benefit that should a partner be available, they could also use the system without me having to pull targets!)

Price of acquisition quoted put a G2 SMT at about the same cost of a new custom build (lock, stock AND barrel... but no sights) which I decided I didn't really need. If access to an SMT system made utilization of those I already have more practical I felt it would be of vastly more value to me than yet another single rifle.

BUT if I couldn't single-handedly deploy it when and where I wanted to shoot, it'd be of no value to me. I shoot at several locations, I wanted something portable.

I'm anxiously awaiting user reports of how things go at WGC this coming weekend, either to be posted here or perhaps conveyed in a phone call. (Contact me via PM if you'd be willing to provide a phone number I can reach you Saturday afternoon once the match is over!)

The SMT technology being installed is based on the same system I have in their G2 but from everything I've seen and heard it's vastly more sophisticated. (I was pleased to be able to assist in the infrastructure installation at WGC over the past couple of weeks.)

I'd be there myself were it not for a match schedule conflict; there's something else going on that to me has more appeal.

 

[spclark]

Are those steel uprights the sensors and are they fixed in place?

No, they're very substantial aluminum extrusions. Not unlike what's commonly used for office divider systems and trade show display structures but quite a bit heavier.

Or are the sensors on the target....little hard to see.

No, they're installed on precision mounting frames secured to the pit wall, about six feet in front of the target carriers.

Is there any concern about those uprights being shot?

There's a black powder long range event scheduled for the weekend after this one. My understanding is that the sensor array is to be removed entirely prior to that event, then re-mounted afterwards.

But, hey, maybe we can reallocate some of that 10% federal sales tax on record guns & ammo sales.

To our needs?

You must be dreaming!

 

[BradY]

Australias national range, the Belmont shooting complex in Brisbane, Queensland has installed Hexta targets. Thats saying something as its 40-50 targets wide. I believe our nationals this year will be shot on manual targets, however the Queensland state titles apparently will be shot on the ET's at the Belmont range.

From shooting on Kongsbergs for the last few years and now knowing limitations and ways to ensure they work accurately and reliably, I would very much like to have a look at the Silver mountain targets to do the same. Enough work has been done on the Hexta targets on the ranges that use them here to show they are fine but again people have put time and effort into doing that. We have had problems with our targets which I put alot down to both a lack of scheduled maintenance, constant accuracy testing and also our style of shooting. We start at 300yds (where you put a big hole in the center) and finish at 1000yds where there are lots and lots of shots put through each target leading up to that distance. Of course the targets are still expected to be 100% and often they are not.

ET's are not a bad thing, but are only as good as what you put into them. They need maintenance, and constant accuracy checking, and a contingency plan to be available if something fails. Without those, a competition is worth very little and after a single bad experience, you will find people not turning up the following year so dont let it happen. The bonus of course is you dont need target pullers and additionally the ET's act as a means of attracting people to the sport.

 

[Elwood]

Sorry I'm coming into this debate late. Electronic targets are great until they stop working properly, or stop working altogether! Then each and everyone of you who attends that match will wish you still pulled targets and even worse you will for ever be skeptical of whether that target has given you the correct scoring information. I've been there already!

I would urge the match organizers to have a contingency plan in the event of the electronics not functioning.

I like the idea of the seven second delay.

 

[RickRusty]

Are there any currently installed and in use here in the USA?

Stuff like:

How much does each target weigh? Rick in RED One target weighs close to 150 lbs. I load them one at a time on the back of my truck alone. No problem. And I'm 68 and broken down some. It takes 2 men to lift them into the legs.

Go to
https://goballistic.us/electronic-targets/you-tube-clips/ and you'll see a video clip of 2 men handling them very well.

Can a HEXTA target be fitted to commonly used target carriers here in the US? I've demoed them in 8 clubs around USA and Canada and they have fit without modifying any carriers. The obvious issue is that counterbalances are set for light cardboard/paper/small dimension wood which probably weigh 40 lbs.

Can someone tell me how many individuals are needed to mount a HEXTA target prior to use? 2

Any suggestion of the weight of a single target? Or physical size? The box is 7 ft X 7 ft. A 6 " border around is the frame. And 7 inches deep.

As I said above at this point in time we are not offering a single-user target. Currently it's our conclusion that we're in a market where precision reigns. Maybe that will change. Our current focus is Precision under all weather conditions, all distances, with the same reliability all the time. And a closed chambered, 8 sensor, is the only way to provide what we all want. The HEX Systems owner/designer is an F-TR shooter for a lot of years.

Even were a single system priced to an end-user be somewhere in the range of an SMT G2 system (which I doubt, at least until some kind of price range is quoted) no meaningful comparison Rick - no meaningful comparison can be made without an objective side by side objective test. We value the results and benefits of our system too much to motivate non-objective discussion. You CAN NOT COMPARE 2 TOTALLY DIFFERENT TECHNOLOGIES can be made when practical considerations of what it takes to deploy a single target are being evaluated.

 

[RickRusty]

I've spent many years in semiconductor sales. Your weasel wording of why you can give a price sounds just like a used car salesman. Rick - are you telling me you threw your bids out to Jo Public? I doubt it.

You can't quote a price because you don't know the destination? For heavens sake man, give the price FOB the factory. Don't know how many monitors? Give the typical/recommended number.
Not sure if post sales training will be needed? Rick I said how long. Give me a break. What is common practice at the existing installation of etargets?

Our package provides.

1. Target
2. Target legs
   1. Made of laminated/glued plywood and professionally painted.
3. Aiming disks to paste on the aiming mark's
4. Shooters outdoor robust monitor that works in the sun. Usually gives 6hr of time. The shooter has no controls on his monitor except scroll to other shooters.
5. Scorers outdoor robust monitor that works in the sun. Usually gives 6 hr. of time. The scores has control like identifying a crossed shot, dealing with convertible sighters etc.
6. A server that can handle numerous lanes and collects the data.
7. 2 - WiFi antenna's
8. Delivered to your range
9. Set up completely and training administrative staff.

You supply 12V power so you have battery warranty.

You get a system that requires no calibration by staff. I can explain that "one on one" if you like. It's exceptionally reliable from week to week. And the most precision possible.

Now depending of the variables listed above we might be as low as $6000 per lane or as high as $8000 per lane.

If I come to your range for a demo, you'll see that you can't compare Apples and Bananas.

 

[Lyndhurst]

Can I suggest, rather than a side by side test, that the SMT microphones be attached to your target. The 6" border should accommodate this without any problems. Once the SMT system has been calibrated the data from the same shot on both systems can then be compared. You would then know if Apples = Bananas!

 

[Kakumba]

Can I suggest, rather than a side by side test, that the SMT microphones be attached to your target. The 6" border should accommodate this without any problems. Once the SMT system has been calibrated the data from the same shot on both systems can then be compared. You would then know if Apples = Bananas!

That seems like a good idea to me. If you did that along with measuring each shot hole location, it would provide some concrete evidence of how accurately each system detects shot placement, and a direct comparison, no argument of different conditions for each system

 

[RickRusty]

Me to. It's Spot On. We've been asking for that for some time. Now the question that begs to be answered is SMT going to "can" their 4 or 5 sensor in light of what Herman said

Now with the 8 mics and new algorithms, we have complete immunity to the effect of incoming angle and wind on the shockwave. Our math is able to measure the location and angle of the shock cone due to angle and wind effects. I have tested this at extreme angles at 25m and today in Lodi at 1000yd and 200yd, and it will be in place at Lodi.

or can we do 3 at once. As I understand from this thread. SMT's sensors are about 6 feet in front of the target. If so we should be able to do 3 at once.

We're up for that discussion.

 

[WindSurgeon]

Wind Surgeon you are wrong, quit trying to make excuses because you have a very uninformed bias against SMT. SMT states each target is $3,000 a piece. It is on their website. If you call Wayne he will tell you. Now they may have sales, etc. but you know the price.

Again Rusty what is the price of a Hex System?

So I contacted Wayne per your suggestion. I have not heard back on the price of an 8 sensor system like the one being installed at Lodi. I asked him for the cost of 20 firing points to replace the kongsberg system already installed at my club. From your comments and the use of "our" in your postings in referring to SMT perhaps you have some sort of direct involvement with SMT and can get the price.