Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
If I wanted to buy my own personal hex system, how much would it cost me?
competing in Fclass with electronic targets
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Rusty,
But when you have F-class shooters blow a hole in the center of your target you no longer have a closed system. Also like I said if people can't afford your system, what good does it do us?
Rick,
I believe I did they are using the S100 sensor. The Lodi system is not what any of us have, it is a fixed permanent system. There will also be 8 mics per target not 4 as you get with the current G2 systems.
Berger.Fan222
Kind of what I thought in your response. There is no maintenance to the SMT system. KTS yes you have to repair the rubber bladder.
Wind Surgeon,
There is no challenge it is what the monitor shows as far as score. Now as far as a miss since the SMT can plot shots outside the target I will go in and look if I don't see it and the shooter has been all over the place and all the sensors are reporting well its a miss. If the person is in the middle and a calm day and the shot before/after are in the same location well that is handled differently. NRA rule is if you shoot a miss, and your next shot comes up on target well then it was a miss no matter how someone has been shooting. We're not quite that strict, yet.
But when you have F-class shooters blow a hole in the center of your target you no longer have a closed system. Also like I said if people can't afford your system, what good does it do us?
Rick,
I believe I did they are using the S100 sensor. The Lodi system is not what any of us have, it is a fixed permanent system. There will also be 8 mics per target not 4 as you get with the current G2 systems.
Berger.Fan222
Kind of what I thought in your response. There is no maintenance to the SMT system. KTS yes you have to repair the rubber bladder.
Wind Surgeon,
There is no challenge it is what the monitor shows as far as score. Now as far as a miss since the SMT can plot shots outside the target I will go in and look if I don't see it and the shooter has been all over the place and all the sensors are reporting well its a miss. If the person is in the middle and a calm day and the shot before/after are in the same location well that is handled differently. NRA rule is if you shoot a miss, and your next shot comes up on target well then it was a miss no matter how someone has been shooting. We're not quite that strict, yet.
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Well I'll admit i don't know how long that will take. I currently have over 750 shots in the targets and their a long way from "blown out". Point is it's closed enough to keep other sonic cracks from confusing things. It's closed enough to correct the error from a "bent out of shape" sonic wave, caused by wind. And very nearly eliminates error due to trajectory angle. That's why their worth more.
Jay Christopherson
Not An Admin
Rusty to your point I'm sure the HexSystem is better or could possibly be better. But at the price that thing costs nobody can afford it, or if people do they are very large clubs. Bring your price down to where it is affordable and then maybe it could be taken serious by most clubs. Like saying a Lexus or Infinity is better than a Honda.
Herman it's more like a Chevy vrs. a Honda.Sounds like your familiar enough ET's to know that you CAN"T compare an "open faced" target with a "closed box" target. For 1) you get a lot more engineering and product with the HEX Target. But 2) you get a product that eliminates wind from blowing the sonic cone where-ever it wills. 2) And you virtually eliminate the effect of trajectory angle or the sonic cones approach angle.
I suppose that statement will either be confirmed or repudiated by the results at Lodi in Sept.
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jkl
Silver $$ Contributor
Shooting last weekend in fast switching winds at Ben Avery on SMT there were shots blown off targets. A nice RED arrow pointing in the direction in which it was off target. I watched it happened to some of the top finishers in the Berger this year. Watching from behind there was quite a chuckle when the Red arrow appears. I have not had any shots not record on my target. There have been some small issues but nothing is perfect. 90% have been user errors.
Before I purchased my SMT Hex brought two of the target systems and had running here for 10 days at Ben Avery. The group of us that purchased SMT looked at the Hex and it was to heavy to take down and put away. In my opinion the Hex needs to be a fixed system which was going to be hard to do as we own the targets not the range. During the test period one of the matches that was run Mid Tompkins allowed to be shot and recorded on the Hex Targets. The shooters voted to do it and Mid allowed it and it went well. The biggest complaint was the monitors they had had a battery life of about 2 strings and back to the wall charger. Hex had several monitors so not a big issue just annoying.
Our SMT are put up and taken down everyday and it takes 10 minutes to set one up. Electronic frames we made have the sensor brackets on them just mount the frame in the carrier. Drop the sensors in the brackets place the antenna and turn it on. One last thing is the carrier is lock in the up position with a ratchet strap. The most common tablet is an Ipad followed by what ever smart phone you have in your pocket.
SMT G2 was $3000.00 I think the Hex was $9000.00. I didn't have much interest at that price so I didn't pay much attention to it. Was it 3 times better?
John
Before I purchased my SMT Hex brought two of the target systems and had running here for 10 days at Ben Avery. The group of us that purchased SMT looked at the Hex and it was to heavy to take down and put away. In my opinion the Hex needs to be a fixed system which was going to be hard to do as we own the targets not the range. During the test period one of the matches that was run Mid Tompkins allowed to be shot and recorded on the Hex Targets. The shooters voted to do it and Mid allowed it and it went well. The biggest complaint was the monitors they had had a battery life of about 2 strings and back to the wall charger. Hex had several monitors so not a big issue just annoying.
Our SMT are put up and taken down everyday and it takes 10 minutes to set one up. Electronic frames we made have the sensor brackets on them just mount the frame in the carrier. Drop the sensors in the brackets place the antenna and turn it on. One last thing is the carrier is lock in the up position with a ratchet strap. The most common tablet is an Ipad followed by what ever smart phone you have in your pocket.
SMT G2 was $3000.00 I think the Hex was $9000.00. I didn't have much interest at that price so I didn't pay much attention to it. Was it 3 times better?
John
Exactly what John states. KTS and Hex are big and bulky. We shoot on a military base we can't have fixed systems. We have $18,000 in for 6 targets plus one that was won by a local shooter at Berger SW. We can handle 42 shooters comfortably. For that amount of money we could have 2 Hex targets or KTS. No brainer for us. Also when I measured vs. the plot it was within 1-2mm, that is good enough.
What distance or distances was that at?
300yds all the farther I have at the farm. When we've had range time at Atterbury I haven't had time to shoot and then go measure as we're running matches. Maybe some day I will.
It seems like a design for a reliable miss detection would combine a closed target system with an external microphone array. The external microphone array would not be accurate enough for scoring, but it would provide the needed redundancy to confirm a "miss" in the event the closed target system fails to detect a hit. The external microphone array should be able to confirm (less accurately) where the bullet passed the target in the case of a miss.
Only shots detected by the external array as misses and not detected by the closed system would be scored misses.
Only shots detected by the external array as misses and not detected by the closed system would be scored misses.
Technically, YES!! But, we are entering into the era of ET, David. Please try to keep an open mind about all this.
Dan
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You also currently see all of your shots displayed on the screen, this is another change. Basically the fears here are the same fears over on the NM board when scopes were talked about then introduced into Service Rifle. You will survive it will be different but the change is for the better.
When it get too shot out a 5$ patch will break the bank.
They are working on the targets as we speak. I will take some pictures tomorrow and try to post them. I don't know all the details and tech stuff about the servers but they will be able to handle everything we can use and then some. That includes two devices per target and all the a-holes a large match can muster behind the lines. Nobody and no range on this planet has a set up like this! I am sure there will be a lot more in the future with this same set up. The standards CAN NOT move the way we have it set up. The range itself has been calibrated. Do you really think you shoot 1000 yrds at most ranges? Ask Brian Litz about that. Do you think your square with the target? That is why all your impacts are off in the pits. We squared everything at the range. These standards will not move. This set up will be far more accurate than any match you have ever been too. I think even Colonel Biggs could get the hang of it! I know Goznell will. I just hope he doesn't hijack the system! All X's for him, none for me! Still I suppose people will bitch. It is in our nature. I will try to post photo's soon.
From what Wayne has told me about it in conversation I wish I was going to shoot MW Palma this year so I could see the system.
From what I have seen so far, Winneqauh has gone above and beyond to put a sophisticated system in place worthy of our Nationals and they have done it with their own money. I expect that there will be growing pains, but that system will be in use all summer long to iron out any issues before the FCNC's in September. I have more worry about the ET rules and procedures than I do about the system itself. That too will get ironed out as we get more experience with ET systems.
Most importantly,Earl and the working members of Winnequah have made that club what it is. In the last twenty years, that range has more than doubled in size. How many private Highpower Rifle ranges in America can say that? Earl Liebetrau deserves a tremendous amount of credit for that, not to mention his many other contributions to the shooting sports overall during the last 40 or 50 years. His track record alone should be buying him our grace and support for this effort. Likewise Karin, works her tail off (with no pay as far as I know) at each and every one of our FCNC's, so we can shoot and have fun.
What they are doing at Lodi is exactly what we should be doing to modernize our sport and make it more attractive to new shooters.
Ray Gross
Captain, US Rifle Team (FTR)
Most importantly,Earl and the working members of Winnequah have made that club what it is. In the last twenty years, that range has more than doubled in size. How many private Highpower Rifle ranges in America can say that? Earl Liebetrau deserves a tremendous amount of credit for that, not to mention his many other contributions to the shooting sports overall during the last 40 or 50 years. His track record alone should be buying him our grace and support for this effort. Likewise Karin, works her tail off (with no pay as far as I know) at each and every one of our FCNC's, so we can shoot and have fun.
What they are doing at Lodi is exactly what we should be doing to modernize our sport and make it more attractive to new shooters.
Ray Gross
Captain, US Rifle Team (FTR)
The statement won't be confirmed or refuted by looking at a target or targets at a match.
It's plain old physics. Wind blows sound waves. Doesn't matter the color of the box.
Gravity requires that you're barrel is on a different plane than your eye. The farther you shoot the more angled your trajectory. Therefore, the sonic cone is sloped closer to the target above the bullet, and farther away from the target below the bullet. That's simple math. Physics - Doesn't matter the color of the box.
So unless you re-calibrate at each yardage point, and measure X & Y axis at each yardage. You're just being subjective. It's like 2 mathematicians that went moose hunting. One shot in front, the other shot behind. They concluded on the average they got him.
The only way to minimize those 2 issues is in a closed target box.
Download the documents at https://goballistic.us/electronic-targets/e-targets-101/
Rusty, please publicly quote the price of your system. I have heard cost ranges from $8,000 to $9,000 per target.
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