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competing in Fclass with electronic targets

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I'm not sure how all that accuracy helps on the detected shots if one missed detection subtracts 10 points from the shooter's score. Yes, I've seen it happen.
 
And I've shot in matches as I said where I've had missed shots on target cost me points and I've seen it happen to others when running the line on pulled targets.
 
And I've shot in matches as I said where I've had missed shots on target cost me points and I've seen it happen to others when running the line on pulled targets.

I haven't attended that many 1000 yard matches (mostly 600), but I've never seen a miss challenged by a shooter keeping it in the X and 10 rings stand in paper targets, except for cases where there was clear proof of a cross fire (hole of right caliber in wrong target).

I've never seen a challenged miss overturned on electronic targets. There is simply too much trust in a flawed system.
 
Please explain how you can state that it is a flawed system? I am curious. Had I not dropped the ball and forgot to change the matches from approved to registered for the first 3x1000 we had a couple Police LR F-class records that would have been set by Jason Pagan. System seemed to be working ok for him and others.
 
ok my inexperience with these targets leave another question, if you have to look at a small screen to se your shot, who is scoring the shooter?? or is there a sharing of one device? or 2 devices, please hope that there is still someone else scoring the shooter?
 
ok my inexperience with these targets leave another question, if you have to look at a small screen to se your shot, who is scoring the shooter?? or is there a sharing of one device? or 2 devices, please hope that there is still someone else scoring the shooter?

Anyone can watch a shooters target if they have a wifi enabled device. Just type in the target IP and watch away.
 
Right up until the server crashes from being overloaded

I dont know about other ranges, but I have upgraded the server that we use with our SMT system such that it will comfortably run at least 50 lanes. At 5 lanes, and 20 clients, it sits around 1-2% utilisation. I could easily enough change it to handle more like 500 lanes if that were desired.
 
Please explain how you can state that it is a flawed system? I am curious.

Others have mentioned various issues including system crashes. Someone noted a bad experience at Cool Acres Sporting Camp.

My personal observations have not been with crashes or inaccuracies, but in failures to detect shots that are scored as misses. How can someone be shooting a steady string of 10s and Xs at 600 yards and then simply miss completely? Sure, it can happen, but is it more likely to be a real miss or a shot that failed to register?

Until the ambiguity in undetected shots can be resolved between a real miss and an undetected hit, the system remains flawed.

The system in place for challenging and ruling on purported misses on paper targets is not perfect, but it is satisfactory: challenge, multiple parties observe paper, checks for cross fires, jury, ruling, etc.

There is not yet a satisfactory system in place for challenging and ruling on purported misses on electronic systems. Until there is, the system is flawed.
 
It seems pretty basic. Just don't shoot a match that has electronic and you will not have to worry. But as time passes you may not have to shoot at all.

Electronic targets will be slowly phased in it may take years. Now take look at the changes maybe you have a car with an 8 track tape player, 13 inch black and white TV, and your slide ruler. My guess you have progressed forward.

At Ben Avery you will not find any better sight than all 100 targets in the air from 1000 yards. Will it be 100 electronic I think not. I can say I have been in the pits when it was at max capacity and enjoyed the day. I don't miss it when the SMT are being used and as a group there has been little issue with electronic targets.

John
 
And I've shot in matches as I said where I've had missed shots on target cost me points and I've seen it happen to others when running the line on pulled targets.

So please explain your club's process for challenging this on an eTarget. It is very strait forward on a manual target. That might help. Thanks.
 
I've been keenly watching this thread and resisting the urge to add my $0.02 as there are plenty of others with more experience. But I can hold out no longer.

I shot a match at Lodi a few weeks ago and it was my first time at that range. It was a great time and they run a tight ship. It seems like they have the right attitude (plus respect within the shooting community, support system, experience running big matches, etc) to get these up and running and have the opportunity to test the system out in real-world conditions at several matches prior to the Nationals. Someone's got to be first and Earl and his crew seem up to the task and definitely have a plan. I like to think I am fortunate to (potentially) be one of the last people to shoot on paper at this historic range before they go digital. I look forward to trying the electronic targets out before Nationals as well as at Nationals. Do I have some concerns? Sure. Am I optimistic that most of the big hurdles will have been overcome before I get to "play"? I am.

For those of us who crave information about how our friends are doing at far away matches, imagine being able to watch online in real time each person's shot-to-shot strings. I did exactly this a few days ago for the Air Rifle match in Colorado and could see how well a few of our local junior shooters were doing. It was really cool. Not sure what the accuracy is of those targets, but it is MUCH smaller than 0.25 in. As some have pointed out, the technology will evolve, but not without a market and competition within the market. If ranges don't adopt these for "big" matches, where is the incentive?

I've shot on electric targets at a "local" club (about 250 miles away) at 300 m during matches about 5-6 times over the past year. I do not believe that they are SMT, but they are very nice to shoot at. I have fired well over 500 rounds and NEVER registered a miss. Have shot 223, 308, and 6BRX with only one snafu. The very first time on an electronic target I was cruising along with all 10s and Xs on my way to my first ever clean. Then up comes a high "5". Confused. Next shot a 10. next shot another "5" in exactly same spot as first 5. Last shot an X. Come to find out that this system can register false shot placement when it is too cold (it was -15oF at time and was mid to low -20s overnight). Something about the membranes sticking together when it gets cold overnight. This should not be a problem with the SMT because from what I am putting together from the conversation, these will use a mic system and not a membrane. Furthermore, it might be cool at Lodi in Sept but not that cold. :)

I can relate very well to the spirit-crushing effect of a miss at a big match. I had two shots scored as misses at Nationals in October. The first one came on Day 1 at 500 yds. Was my first time shooting at 500y and was anxious about my elevation and having only 2 sighters to get it figured out. My string was going very well (for me). At shot 15 puller(s) could not find a hole and it came up a miss. I am not one to challenge, normally, but I did this time. Did not win the challenge. MD didn't take my money. His words "losing 10pts is painful enough..." I do not know who was pulling as the squadding rotation never allowed us to meet, but I have reason to believe that it was likely two members of the local high-school team shooters so it was likely not because of aging eyes. Was shooting a 223 and have never crossfired in about 4000 rounds-for-record in matches. Was it my time to do so? Perhaps. But I don't think so and no other neighboring targets reported unusual activity. Still wonder what happened. So just reinforcing the idea that even with paper targets, unexplained misses happen. And they hurt. Would be lying if I said it didn't rattle me for the rest of the day and would have been fun to say I tied Jim Crofts and Nancy Tompkins on that string. ;)

500nats.jpg



This is getting much longer than I had intended, but I will conclude with this. For all of the uncertainty, aren't we all shooting at the "same" target, with the exact same potential for inaccuracy/hiccup? Aren't we removing the human puller which target-to-target have vastly more variability (judgement, experience, speed)? Isn't a 7-sec time delay across the board, with the same inherent accuracy on shot placement on target inherently more fair? At least worth a try?

Drew

For the record, I'd vote for an even longer that 7-sec delay and will actually miss pulling targets.
 
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It seems pretty basic. Just don't shoot a match that has electronic and you will not have to worry. But as time passes you may not have to shoot at all.

This kind of misses the point of waiting until the technology has matured to a certain standard of reliability before becoming enthusiastic.

It's not the customers who buy early who make products better, it's the customers who wait until the products have matured to the desired level of quality.

Sony Betamax, anyone? Laser Video Disk?

At the cost of current systems, ranges that lay their money down are likely going to be stuck with their chosen system for 5-10 years before being able to replace a lemon with something better. A lot of ranges will never have the volume of fire or the volume of match participants to justify the investment.

I love electronic targets for practice, and I prefer them for competition. But I don't really care about winning, I just want to improve my shooting skills.

But I can see how people who care about winning might prefer to wait until the technology matures so the high stakes situations can be handled better.
 
.

I had shot a couple of rifles matches in ET, basically the SCIUSS system (european) and liked very much. I am all for electronic targets for F-Class.

But I have a question: If the 7 seconds delay is not mandatory, will a National Record be the same (and considered the same thing) when you fire on an ET without any delay versus another Record shot in an ET with a 7 seconds delay? Will be fair to consider them the same thing when it is pretty obvious that a system without any delay will be easier to broke records?


LRCampos.
 
[QUOTE="skiutah02, post: 36755002, member: 1291021]Aren't we removing the human puller which target-to-target have vastly more variability (judgement, experience, speed)?
[/QUOTE]

Exactly! We also remove the squadding/ pulling conundrum of not having a number of shooters evenly divisible by 3.

We also gain a great deal of freedom as shooters. If something comes up and I have to leave early from the match, it doesn't screw my target mates.

With a mandatory 7 sec delay, I will be fully pleased. If the delay can't be made mandatory, I will still be pleased because I can experiment more to see if I can squeeze out an advantage.

Let's go shoot.
 
Aren't we removing the human puller which target-to-target have vastly more variability (judgement, experience, speed)?

Exactly!

From what I've read about the required maintenance, it's a fantasy to think that all the electronic targets on the line are the same or offer the same level of reliability.

If your target has gone longer or had the center shot out since the key parts were last replaced, you may have a higher chance of a missing shot or an inaccurate reading than the guys around you.

You ever buy identical cell phones or computers for different family members? They do not stay identical for long. How much more for things that get shot at every day?
 
It seems pretty basic. Just don't shoot a match that has electronic and you will not have to worry. But as time passes you may not have to shoot at all.

Electronic targets will be slowly phased in it may take years. Now take look at the changes maybe you have a car with an 8 track tape player, 13 inch black and white TV, and your slide ruler. My guess you have progressed forward.

At Ben Avery you will not find any better sight than all 100 targets in the air from 1000 yards. Will it be 100 electronic I think not. I can say I have been in the pits when it was at max capacity and enjoyed the day. I don't miss it when the SMT are being used and as a group there has been little issue with electronic targets.

John
That's all well and good but they decided our Nationals will be shot on ET's. So I guess we skip Nationals for two years? I haven't missed any of them since it was in Lodi the first time in 2008.
 
I dont know about other ranges, but I have upgraded the server that we use with our SMT system such that it will comfortably run at least 50 lanes. At 5 lanes, and 20 clients, it sits around 1-2% utilisation. I could easily enough change it to handle more like 500 lanes if that were desired.
No one has mentioned what server or servers they will use in Lodi.
 
Rusty to your point I'm sure the HexSystem is better or could possibly be better. But at the price that thing costs nobody can afford it, or if people do they are very large clubs. Bring your price down to where it is affordable and then maybe it could be taken serious by most clubs. Like saying a Lexus or Infinity is better than a Honda.

Herman it's more like a Chevy vrs. a Honda. :) Sounds like your familiar enough ET's to know that you CAN"T compare an "open faced" target with a "closed box" target. For 1) you get a lot more engineering and product with the HEX Target. But 2) you get a product that eliminates wind from blowing the sonic cone where-ever it wills. 2) And you virtually eliminate the effect of trajectory angle or the sonic cones approach angle.
 
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