Nobody seems to ask what due diligence has been done on systems installed.
competing in Fclass with electronic targets
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And ongoing maintenance program?
Several brands I have experienced are affected by the core being shot out especially if they are used at 300 yards for F Class!
To avoid this one of our major shoots has done away with 300 yards.
Use the same targets at 1000 and they struggle for accurate reporting with the occasional missed shot altogether.
Maybe best to shoot the long range first followed by the mid range?
Have the targets in best condition for the long range?
However as I have said before I think E targets are great for club shoots and especially my home club which is hot and humid 9 months of the year!
But I personally would prefer to keep manual targets for major competitions!
Several brands I have experienced are affected by the core being shot out especially if they are used at 300 yards for F Class!
To avoid this one of our major shoots has done away with 300 yards.
Use the same targets at 1000 and they struggle for accurate reporting with the occasional missed shot altogether.
Maybe best to shoot the long range first followed by the mid range?
Have the targets in best condition for the long range?
However as I have said before I think E targets are great for club shoots and especially my home club which is hot and humid 9 months of the year!
But I personally would prefer to keep manual targets for major competitions!
I've said it before on this forum and on Facebook F-class page.... eTargets suck for F class. We have them at my club and it just doesn't work. All the work arounds are simply a reduction of skills to accommodate the target's shortcomings.
I am hoping they run great at Nationals. However, I do think that Nationals is the wrong place to debut them in a major match. Just my opinion.
It does seem like the only way a range with too few firing points for traditional targets and 200ish shooter can hold a match this large. Whether a range that small should have been awarded the match is another conversation altogether.
It does seem like the only way a range with too few firing points for traditional targets and 200ish shooter can hold a match this large. Whether a range that small should have been awarded the match is another conversation altogether.
The E targets at Winnequah will be used for major matches before the Nationals. There is a 2 day long range regional next weekend as the first run. Then a 3 day match memorial weekend. And one of the biggest matches in the country in June. Midwest Palma followed by state championship, 7 days straight of long range shooting. It isn't a small range either. The FCNC have already been there twice, without the added lanes, or E targets.
The problem is using them for F class, not palma and other disciplines. The guy on Facebook touting the technology said the targets self center on your sighting shot. Well that just is reducing the need for using the adjustments on your scope to get on target if that is true. At our club, you get unlimited sighters because our system does not self center and there is no way to know where your shot landed looking through the scope. You have to guess looking at the screen. I have seen guys take 20 sighters in a match to get on target which looks more like practice to me than sighting in. Again, a reduction in skills required in order to accommodate a technology. All you have to do is hit the target and then just start pulling the trigger as fast as possible to get consistent wind by shot. That looks more like benchrest to me than F class. Smart F class shooters will take a speed shooting mentality if they are thinking of their strategy for nationals. I for one am building a left and right port, right bolt, right eject and installing an ejector. This will be an advantage over those without an ejector and two handed reloading system. Just like the benchrest guys.
Here's the Facebook thread: https://www.facebook.com/groups/150623451644006/permalink/1086564604716548/
Some targets are still doing R&D in the field. Look over the waters to Down-Under. A dozen clubs with 100 + shooters, use 100 + HEX Targets every Saturday afternoon. The work. Their the most precise. Reliable. Part of the landscape there.
I've been asking for some standard process across the board to prove our targets qualify. 3rd Party. Can't find any takers or process. If you find one PLEASE call me at 780-518-6885. My bet is that our HEX Systems Match-Grade Targets are the only ones that can qualify today for the .25" governed by the NRA. Lets stand up all 3 side by side and put them through an extensive test. I suggest Rattlesnake in Washington.
Categorically this is not my experience on the SMT ETs....in either the wind aspects or the use of the system. We only ever get two shots for sighters period. I have just taken a rifle that has only ever been shot at 100 yards out to 800 yards on an Electronic target and top scored the range with 50% xs....and I only had two sighters.
Yes ETs have the potential to change when you start and stop shooting within a relay but they absolutely do not dumb down wind reading - they simply give you more choices. As on any other day now with manual marking - those that make the best choices on the day will win. As today with manual markers in some conditions if you shoot fast with a great marker you will get it all done within a stable condition, or they have given you enough time to wait for it to come back.
The clincher for me with technology - is the ability to change - heck if no delay is not working then programme one in - you will now have the ability and choice to do that.
In due course ETs will provide a much fairer outcome - I have seen shooters lose with manual markers simply because of slow pit service...the marker determined the outcome not the shooter, that for me is an absolute PO. I lost a regional once - perfect string of xs - shot the spotter and blew a hole in the target, they didn't patch it properly and couldn't find my next bullet and gave me a miss. Argued the toss but by then I was done.
If by some magic ETs allow 6s to be regularly and reliably competitive at a national or international level because of the supposed bench rest aspect then - more power to the sport,
I'll match every I lost or can't find my bullet because of ETs with a same same on manual targets.
Having said all of this - Running Nationals on ETs so early is a huge call and could make or break acceptance.
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Now that I know it is the SMT target, that makes me even more worried. External mics, with only 4 of them are going to create inaccuracy and pick up more external sound than the two other internal mic systems. Greater than a 1/4 inch of standard deviation under laboratory conditions, worse in the field. That's a mile in F-class and the difference between a national championship and the boobie prize. Ask SMT to provide you with their independently verified data on accuracy in the field. You don't think the sounds of a supersonic bullet passing through the target next to you wont register on the SMT external mic on your target?
Who's going to tell one of the top shooter that they shot a 6 or missed the target completely when they had been drilling the x ring all day? Nobody is pasting up the targets between shots so there is no ability to contest the computer's read. I know this from direct experience. Really, this is a disaster in the making. Driven by what? People not wanting to pull targets or a club wanting to be techno cool and edgy. That's fine at the club level or perhaps even State or Regional level. But at a national championship? Its not a place to experiment. SMT takes a great risk and should probably back out. If it goes poorly, it will take them twice as long to re-establish their credibility along with the guys making this decision at the nationals. As they say, "it is easier to maintain credibility than earn it back once lost".
Who's going to tell one of the top shooter that they shot a 6 or missed the target completely when they had been drilling the x ring all day? Nobody is pasting up the targets between shots so there is no ability to contest the computer's read. I know this from direct experience. Really, this is a disaster in the making. Driven by what? People not wanting to pull targets or a club wanting to be techno cool and edgy. That's fine at the club level or perhaps even State or Regional level. But at a national championship? Its not a place to experiment. SMT takes a great risk and should probably back out. If it goes poorly, it will take them twice as long to re-establish their credibility along with the guys making this decision at the nationals. As they say, "it is easier to maintain credibility than earn it back once lost".
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
If you can arrange it, I would be happy to help you. I live near enough to Rattlesnake to come out an put holes in targets. Heck, I can show up with multiple calibers so varying impact velocities can be verified.
Sometimes change is difficult to get our heads around.
Have you shot on an ET?
I have yet to see perfectly pasted faces and definitely none when a spotter has blown a big hole and a new face needs to be put up in a hurry - I can show you examples where your 1/4 inch variation would be welcome. But all of this has been discussed previously - just the emotion never goes away. Logic and like for like real world comparisons need to be made not comparisons to perception.
I never understand why we worry so much about top shooters being affected - there are plenty that spend just as much time and money that are lower down in the order and need just as fair a crack as anyone else.
Technology has the ability to improve, the latest technology is vastly improved over the early versions - two of us ran an ET session just last weekend - I have never been involved with setting them up before and he had a crash course during the week - match ran no worries.
"You don't think the sounds of a supersonic bullet passing through the target next to you won't register on the SMT external mic on your target?" Real world - haven't seen it across any of the disciplines.
Something that is important - as its technology and technology improves- is to state against what version and generation you are seeing issues - could all be moot if an upgrade has sorted it.
The sooner the sport is on the same playing field the better - being in a half way house (some matches manual, some ET) is problematic.
Yes - it is a big call to run such a large event so early.
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"Yes - it is a big call to run such a large event so early."
FYI on the so early. I agree when there's still R&D in the works. However, In Australia our targets are run on matches EVERY Saturday noon their time. You can see a dozen clubs or so, with over 100 shooters, shooting on over 100 targets. They never bat an eye to the challenge. Our biggest club runs 30 targets a budget 8 - 9 shooters per lane.
Try next Friday night at 9:00 PM MDST @ http://shooting.hexsystems.com.au/
FYI on the so early. I agree when there's still R&D in the works. However, In Australia our targets are run on matches EVERY Saturday noon their time. You can see a dozen clubs or so, with over 100 shooters, shooting on over 100 targets. They never bat an eye to the challenge. Our biggest club runs 30 targets a budget 8 - 9 shooters per lane.
Try next Friday night at 9:00 PM MDST @ http://shooting.hexsystems.com.au/
I know - most of NZ has been running on ETs for a while but not the confidence to shoot a national yet - but NZ is tiny with respect to resources compared to the US so I can understand the NZ adoptance at that level being slower.
Mudcat
Gold $$ Contributor
Ran some 300 yard practice today on the SMT. here is the actual target, after I calibrated off of ONE shot at the beginning of the day. Note that the shots outside of the 10 ring were all sighters (had to put a new rear sight on my son's rifle) except for the 9 at 5oclock, which was the only shot for score that wasnt a 10 or X all day for Trey and Adam (both are USA U25 shooters, palma style, of course). The SMT did not miss a single shot all day. For those that have not used an SMT ET, use one, for a day or three, before commenting on it. You will be surprised how accurate it is.
Ok the targets at Lodi have 8 mics per target. It is a different system from the G2 and I believe it is running on a Server called the S100 or somthing to that effect. It is nothing like what anybody has at their ranges currently from a hardware standpoint.
You are making a mountain out of a mole hill because you don't have a clue about what you are talking about. You are the type that sees change and automatically assume it will be bad. Have you shot on or ran a match with SMT targets? Wayne came down Friday night to work with us Saturday. Issues we were having were self induced because we dented a couple mics and the extensions we bought (2nd hand) didn't fit the sensors properly. As far as the target registering shots from a target next to you. Yes if you are in admin mode it will sometimes show but they don't get plotted. There is enough code in the system to prevent that. I watched it first hand while I was trying to get a palma shooter with 2155s that were going to slow on target. I was in the admin mode it was showing partial registrations of shots left and right to me but they weren't plotted on his target.
Jeff Hopkins who did quite well at Nationals last year and at the Sinclair FB reginal here a couple weeks back loves our electronic targets. We had guys this weekend in a 3x1000 and Palma match that were shooting X's and 10s and they got blown out into the 6/5 ring, why? Because of the wind. Hate to tell you shooters do get blown out because of wind even if they are shooting 10s and X's. We even had off paper misses. Heck with my 280 at 1k saturday it was changing real hard and fast and you couldn't keep up with it. There was a big let off I thought it came back so took off a minute and after shooting 10's and X's I fired a 6 out the left. Took off another 2 minutes it was an 8. That wasn't the system, that was wind and that was me. People asked I can go into admin mode and show them where the shot was as regular mode only plots 1 MOA outside of the target (feed back you can't get by manual targets).
Also I don't know what the heck you are ranting on about self centering. With the SMTs you calibrate them to the center of the target. If you fire a shot to the left it shows up to the left. You center the system up in calibration period. Can do it on one shot, can do it on 20.
Four years ago maybe 3 (whatever year the Brit won the LR championship) I was down 2 going in to 1k for palma 10, X for sighters then a miss, follwed by a X, 10, X, X. I never touched my sights. To this day I swear the center which was covered and soft from pasters ate teh hole and covered it up. SMT would have shown the shot. Manual target can't do that. 2 years ago I left Camp Perry LR Nats because I had the same to old guys pulling my targets two days in a row. During Leech cup it took 4 minutes for them to pull my first sighter. I was getting the target up about every 1.5-2 minutes. Prior to this they were kinda chuckling about hope we didn't complain to much about their pit service because they were getting to old for this. Well as others have said yeah SMTs will let them shoot which we want. Otherwise since you dislike e-targets so you can be the first to go tell the old guys like this to get the heck off the range because they can't pull targets.
You say it sucks for F-Class. In Mid-range Jeff, Dewayne and Kevin along with some others blow out a hell of a lot of spotters. Targets are down awhile to repair. With e-targets you don't have that.Does it have its glitches yes. Sometimes it flickers in and out. But have you ever had a slow pit puller? Have you ever stayed slung up at Perry for 10-15 minutes while they chase a boat out of the impact area? Have you ever blown out a spotter and had to wait 5 minutes for a target repair. Ever have to call for a target to be pulled once, twice? Speed up the pit service? Yeah manual targets are perfuct buddy they have no issues at all.
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Thanks Shawn for the info. That makes a huge difference. I'm sure the fclass nationals will go flawlessly.
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