Combining F-Open and F-TR Rifles in Matches
- Thread starter smoking-brass
- Start date
When there are just so few shooters, there are no awards for that division.[/QUOTE
Bayou, so if the Regestered Match program stated, must be 5 shooters in a class to get an Award and there was only 4 F/O shooters and 13 F/tr shooters. If the Open shooters were the top scores in every match, and 1 took the over all win. Only the F/tr shooters would get Awards ?
Bayou, so if the Regestered Match program stated, must be 5 shooters in a class to get an Award and there was only 4 F/O shooters and 13 F/tr shooters. If the Open shooters were the top scores in every match, and 1 took the over all win. Only the F/tr shooters would get Awards ?
Some shooting buddies have skipped a few events that tend to combine F-TR and F-Open. They tend to be more interested in bragging rights than anything else. It's kinda a bummer to be listed 3rd or 4th in the match results when you shot the highest F-TR score. It seems odd that the top F-TR score is somehow degraded because not enough F-Open or F-TR shooters showed up that day.
The way I figure it, every shooter who shows up has outshot every shooter who stayed home. The match results bulletin should reflect that.
The way I figure it, every shooter who shows up has outshot every shooter who stayed home. The match results bulletin should reflect that.
As a young match director, I was faced with this decision in 1990 at a local "top gun" event we tried for a first time. The helper that took the task of supplying the trophies over spent the budget and a created situation that left me in a tough spot. Against orders from the "no ethic" club president I delivered the trophies to the winners as promised and have never considered short changing after that. If a class is weak then reduce the places handed out but always give out a 1st or it will never grow.
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XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
I don't know how Denys does it at Bayou (but considereing that he shoots F-TR I'd bet its similar)
Look at the match program, it will tell you what classes and awards (supposed to anyway) At
I have seen a club match where FTR outnumbered F Open but there were not enough Open shooters for the two classes, and I finished with the top F-TR score, I was second or third. That is the way it is written. On the other hand, one upon a time, at a Regional I have been given an award for 1st SharpShooter when I was the only SS competing. That will depend on your MD.
Some clubs I've noticed shoot all their matches as "Registered" matches as opposed to many that shoot mostly "Approved" and some being "registered". I assume that is on the chance that a member shoots a national record it counts (you can't shoot a record at an "approved" match). In that case, these matches are really nothing more than monthly club matches for everyone but the MD (more work for him). If the attendence doesn't support a class dont be surprised if you are shooting in "F class" with no sub distinctions.
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
noload, here's the deal. At Bayou Rifles we have been holding 2 matches a month dedicated to HighPower, Service Rifle and F-class for over a decade. (Much longer than that prior to the advent of F-class.) We shoot the LR match (1000 yards) on the first Sunday of the month and we shoot the MR (300 or 600, evenly divided) on the third Sunday of every month. On the second Sunday we hold XTC matches. We also host TSRA, Lapua Regional and other fun events and we have a sprinkling of Garand matches to boot. I believe we host something like 42 matches a year with several of them being multi-day events.
For three years, I was the match director responsible for putting on the monthly LR matches. These matches were all sanctioned by the NRA, some were registered, the others were approved. We have people coming to the matches every month and some come from far away; my primary concern was always (and will always be) safety. My second concern was to make sure everyone shot and had a good time doing it. As people signed in and paid their entrance fee, they would put their names on the score sheets. There was a score sheet for F-Open, another for F-TR, another for Sling and if there were any, there would be one for Service Rifle and another for MROS. If there was only one SR shooter, I would inform him or her that they would be bundled in with the sling shooters. We did not have match programs for these monthly matches.
When registration closed, I would gather the score sheets and proceed with the squadding and at the same time, divide the classes starting from the bottom, on each sheet showing what the classes were for that day. As people entered their scores in the book, they could see in which class they were placed. I never mixed F-Open shooters with F-TR. There were cases when the F-Open shooters were very few and they stayed on their sheet and didn't get award. That also occurred for sling, SR and MROS. The SR shooters were so infrequent that adding them to the sling sheet would give them at least a chance at some type of award, especially if someone posted a DNF. I accounted for all the shooters, even if some dropped out. People do drop out. I did so myself recently when the heat got to me and I opened the bolt on a misfire and got 40 some grains of Varget in the action. I recognized the sign from God and since I had already done my pit duty (which did not help with my heat exhaustion,) I retreated to my CUV and air conditioning.
If the SR shooter was listed in the slings sheet, I made sure the results showed that he or she was a Service Rifle shooter. I always tried to maximize the awards, but never mixed Open and TR together unless there were very few of both, which never happened during my three year ordeal. As I said earlier, I always tried to maximize the awards for the simple reason that I loved calling out lots of names as winners of this or that and first in class and so on. This way even new shooters just starting out could get to hear their names called out as winner of Marksman or whatnot. It's not always the same MAs or HMs that are recognized each month. My hope was to grow the attendance and keep encouraging new people and it seemed to work.
On the other hand, the match program for the big matches (TSRA, Lapua, etc.) have language that explains how shooters may be rolled up or moved to another score sheet. I have never seen TR and Open together at those matches, and they always have enough for sling, MROS and SR as discrete matches, but the language is there, just in case.
I hope this explains it to you.
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Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
Pat, happy to do it and thank you.
If you're referring to River Bend Gun Club -- yes, all F-Class shooters are grouped together in one category for awards purposes, and FTR and F-Open scores are not broken out separately from each other in the bulletin, but all the match bulletins I can remember seeing had some kind of notation to distinguish between those shooting FTR and those shooting F-Open.
Dave Rabin
Thanks for pointing this out. Since F-Class participation is strong, maybe they can rewrite the program next year to separate F-Open and F-TR and only combine them if there are less than three competitors in each.
No don't confuse classifications with categories. In fact, a high master in F-Open is not the same as a HM in conventional highpower. Anyone who thinks so...meet me on the two hundred yard line for offhand (standing slow fire)
You can't combine across different rifle categories due to differing rules. I would not want to be lumped in with F-class guys when I am using a sling. With iron sights...or even a scope in the any/any. I do really like that we can all shoot together though. It's great
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Did actually you read all the previous posts that have been up for the last two weeks, or are you just trying to up your post count and stir shit up? Don't kid yourself, the difficulty factor works both ways. Shooting offhand is not easy. Neither is cleaning an F-Class target in challenging wind conditions at 1000 yd, so don't even go there. Both are difficult. The question was whether F-TR and F-Open shooters can be combined into a single class for the purpose of an award if there are not enough shooters in either category by itself. The answers is, "Yes, they can." End of story.
Killshot
X's matter....but 10s win (but damn, Xs feel good)
Just thinking out loud about Classifications... I've long thought it odd that once one posts the needed scores in Registered matches to earn their High Master rank that they retain that classification even if subsequent scores are at Master or lower.
Not good or bad, just unusual compared to other sports with governing bodies like with golf, bowling etc that keep a running tally.
And on-topic, yeah it's kind of a bummer when turnout precludes an award for the ones who DID show up and shot really well. Thankfully I learned that life isn't fair when I was nine.
Not good or bad, just unusual compared to other sports with governing bodies like with golf, bowling etc that keep a running tally.
And on-topic, yeah it's kind of a bummer when turnout precludes an award for the ones who DID show up and shot really well. Thankfully I learned that life isn't fair when I was nine.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
You can request a downgrade in classification with the NRA via documentation of lower scores for a specific number of shots for record:
19.17 Reclassification—A competitor who has been classifi ed by the NRA will be reclassified as follows:
(a) NRA Headquarters will record all scores which qualify for classification purposes according to Rule 19.4.
(b) A competitor will be considered for reclassification upward when his
most recently reported scores, for not less than 240 shots (120 shots
for Prone Classification), fired subsequent to the tournament date at
which he earned his current classification, have been recorded as prescribed, except that such consideration will not include tournament
or league scores until after all scores for the tournament or league
competition concerned have been recorded. If his average score so
justifies, he will be reclassified upward accordingly.
(c) A competitor will be reclassified downward only upon request a request
in writing by him to the NRA, and only on the basis of at least 320 shots (180 shots for Prone Classification) recorded as prescribed, fired subsequent to the effective date of his current classification. If his average on this basis so justifies, he will be reclassified downward accordingly.
(d) If after reclassification downward, a competitor regains the classification thus vacated, he will not again be reclassified below the latter.
Not sure how many actually partake of this option, but at least it's available.
19.17 Reclassification—A competitor who has been classifi ed by the NRA will be reclassified as follows:
(a) NRA Headquarters will record all scores which qualify for classification purposes according to Rule 19.4.
(b) A competitor will be considered for reclassification upward when his
most recently reported scores, for not less than 240 shots (120 shots
for Prone Classification), fired subsequent to the tournament date at
which he earned his current classification, have been recorded as prescribed, except that such consideration will not include tournament
or league scores until after all scores for the tournament or league
competition concerned have been recorded. If his average score so
justifies, he will be reclassified upward accordingly.
(c) A competitor will be reclassified downward only upon request a request
in writing by him to the NRA, and only on the basis of at least 320 shots (180 shots for Prone Classification) recorded as prescribed, fired subsequent to the effective date of his current classification. If his average on this basis so justifies, he will be reclassified downward accordingly.
(d) If after reclassification downward, a competitor regains the classification thus vacated, he will not again be reclassified below the latter.
Not sure how many actually partake of this option, but at least it's available.
The simple answer is the match director can do anything in the approved program.
But I prefer a more nuanced answer that addresses under what conditions F-Open and F-TR shooters should be combined. I'd prefer to see them kept separate whenever possible without unduly burdening the match director or process.
Even though at times, different shooters participate in each discipline, the categories really are different enough to warrant keeping them separate even with modest levels of participation. By the time there are 3-5 F-Class shooters in each category, I don't see any need to combine them.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I shoot in F-TR, so I'm pretty familiar with how the system usually works. I've shot in quite a number of "combined" matches over the years. Only on very rare occasions will an F-TR shooter ever win an award when a good complement of F-Open shooters are present and the two are combined into a single entity.
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