Cold bore groups?

[SuperiorRifles]

I have a customer that wants me to build him a light weight, long range hunting rifle that will group well with cold bore shots. He said he doesn't care how well it groups after the first shot, and is VERY adamant about the first shot hitting in the SAME spot EVERY day. My question is: Is there a secret to building a gun that is intended for cold bore grouping? Is all of the precision work I use to build a long range hunting or competition rifle any different from building a gun the will group well with a cold bore?

Thanks,
Ryan

 

[mikecr]

Is there a secret to building a gun that is intended for cold bore grouping?

Maybe. IMO the 'secret' to building any successful gun is R&D. That is build/find one that meets the goals(as field validated), reproduce it, and re-validate. Over & over, until you can prove what you make, this particular offering, does in fact meet the goals.
Either there aren't many gunbuilders doing this for hunting, or their goals suck.

Is all of the precision work I use to build a long range hunting or competition rifle any different from building a gun the will group well with a cold bore?

Obviously a good hunting gun is nothing like a competition gun. There is the weight issue, and stock differences for sure.
The hunting barrel needs to be free of stress, and IMO all metal should be darkened. The scope should be mounted lower to reduce the affects of cant, which is a significant factor in single shot field accuracy. There needs to be provision for mounting of a light bipod(Harris), and sling.
As mentioned, YOU will have to find and validate a cold bore load(not the customer), and you'll have to do it as a customer will use it in the real world(shouldered, bipod in the dirt, etc). You'll also need to work out a prefouling procedure and shot timing that establishes conditions of your guarantee. This is cold bore accuracy -it's not group shooting.

Don't generalize these things away due to efforts involved. If you can't or won't do it, tell the customer up front.
Two companies I know of that do it, are Cooper and GAP. They do pretty well, but they could make a lot more money with a smarter business model.

 

[SuperiorRifles]

Is there a secret to building a gun that is intended for cold bore grouping?

Maybe. IMO the 'secret' to building any successful gun is R&D. That is build/find one that meets the goals(as field validated), reproduce it, and re-validate. Over & over, until you can prove what you make, this particular offering, does in fact meet the goals.
Either there aren't many gunbuilders doing this for hunting, or their goals suck.

Is all of the precision work I use to build a long range hunting or competition rifle any different from building a gun the will group well with a cold bore?

Obviously a good hunting gun is nothing like a competition gun. There is the weight issue, and stock differences for sure.
The hunting barrel needs to be free of stress, and IMO all metal should be darkened. The scope should be mounted lower to reduce the affects of cant, which is a significant factor in single shot field accuracy. There needs to be provision for mounting of a light bipod(Harris), and sling.
As mentioned, YOU will have to find and validate a cold bore load(not the customer), and you'll have to do it as a customer will use it in the real world(shouldered, bipod in the dirt, etc). You'll also need to work out a prefouling procedure and shot timing that establishes conditions of your guarantee. This is cold bore accuracy -it's not group shooting.

Don't generalize these things away due to efforts involved. If you can't or won't do it, tell the customer up front.
Two companies I know of that do it, are Cooper and GAP. They do pretty well, but they could make a lot more money with a smarter business model.

As far as building (the very precise machining operations) there is nothing (from what I can find) different. It would be more of a configuration of components maybe. IMO the whole cold bore accuracy is mostly collecting data on how one particular rifle shoots the first cold bore shot and testing to validate. Basically you can do this with any rifle. Build a light weight long range hunting rifle and collect the data on cold bore shots and pass it on to the customer. Right? What would be a good way to validate the first shots? What would be an acceptable amount of time to wait between shots for the barrel to be cold again? 2 hours, 12 hours, 1 day? I will preform these test But want to be very scientific about the procedures. Measure the temp of the barrel and only shoot after it returns to 70 deg? Put it in a frig or freezer so a 5 shot group doesn't take 5 days? Only shoot at 100 yards to keep the weather conditions as small of a variable as possible? I want to have a very controlled process and eliminate as many variable as possible. Might take a while to preform the experiment but will be interesting to see how it goes.

 

[randy x]

Tubbs boron nitride coating will do it.

 

[expiper]

Ryan,,,its not up to you to do the shooting ,,,its up to the shooter/hunter,,,,he has to learn how to clean his rifle and load for it (factory loads or re-loads) ,,,its important for him to learn how clean/dirty his bbl needs to be,,,the only way to find it out is for him to "do it"...Roger

 

[WyleWD]

I have a customer that wants me to build him a light weight, long range hunting rifle that will group well with cold bore shots. He said he doesn't care how well it groups after the first shot, and is VERY adamant about the first shot hitting in the SAME spot EVERY day. My question is: Is there a secret to building a gun that is intended for cold bore grouping? Is all of the precision work I use to build a long range hunting or competition rifle any different from building a gun the will group well with a cold bore?

Thanks,
Ryan

Personally, I think you are in line for a patience trying customer. He has asked all these questions or made demands of you..... but what about HIS ability?? Is his ability up to hitting the same spot EVERY day be it shivering or sweating? What scope? And all this out of a "lightweight" hunting rifle with a 3-5# (?) trigger?? :

I've been hunter for 50 years and a competition shooter for the last dozen or so of that, had my share of rifles, and while I've had a few that were pretty close on the cold bore shot, there were none that I'd stake my reputation or the farm on. No pun intended. WD

 

[blvedere]

Ryan,
This guy is asking a near impossible task from you. In my opinion, you would be dealing with him forever, and he would never be satisfied.

 

[savagedasher]

Ryan I will take one also. I can win allot of bets. But my advice is tell him no. Larry

 

[fredhorace77]

Ryan,
This guy is asking a near impossible task from you. In my opinion, you would be dealing with him forever, and he would never be satisfied.

+1...lol..my thoughts exactly..

 

[mikecr]

SuperiorRifles, now you're learning why few builders do it, and it sounds like you'll learn that it's not as simple as assumption.
Building a successful gun includes a successful plan. It's not an abstract left to customers gamble. Right? You want your customers gambling on your guns?

This subject forever circles back to your business model.
Are you building guns cheaply, screw parts together, send out the door? If so, just tell the customer you can't guarantee an accurate hunting rifle, cuz you can't.
Do you have a flagship hunting rifle, that costs 2-3times as much(due to your efforts), but everybody wants one in their safe?
If so, this is what you offer this customer and NOTHING else. It's the only thing you can guarantee.

It seems like you aren't familiar with cold bore accuracy yet. Freezing ammo is not the same as field validating a cold gun. 100yds is not the same as 500. It DOES take a lot of time to cold barrel group, adjustments are trial & error, so you may need to do a lot of slow grouping -the first time -then reproduce & validate for the rest.
And what I would do from there is post actual performance for each gun by serial#, with qualifiers, and auction them from your site. When you take the crapshoot out of it, there are hunters who will pay big bucks for your guns. Hell, look at what folks pay for Jarrett rifles!

If I were you at this point, I'd send him to Cooper, GA Precision, or Jarrett.

 

[CaptainMal]

You think about cleaning procedure between shots?

How, how much, the method of cleaning and a variety of related issues would be out of you or any builder's control. I am assuming the rifle is cleaned as if it were put away for another hunting day, after each shot.

Just say, "No".

 

[K22]

In my experience, each gun can be different. Only by shooting it under different situations, clean bore shots, cold bore (barrel already fouled), hot bore shots, etc. can one determine capabilities of a specific rifle. If this customer is an experienced rifleman he should already know this fact.

A friend of mine, a former State Policeman sniper told me that they kept a detailed record of cold barrel shots (from a barrel with a precise number of fouling shots). In his business, the cold barrel shot was the only one that mattered.

A hunting rifle does not have that kind of extreme requirement; especially for big game. A quality rifle / scope combo that's capable of holding a sub 1 moa five shot group should be adequate for any normal big game hunting applications. The owner can then experiment with cold / clean / hot barrel shots to determine the nuances of his rifle. In my experience, most game is missed because of lack of marksmanship rather than a defective rifle.

 

[kdvarmint]

I would be interested in what his intended application is. What game animal, and what his definition of long range is. Maybe he has a fantasy desire of what he needs that's excessive of reality. Too many TV hunting episodes maybe?

 

[Hal]

Ryan

You might check on 24hourcampfire in the long range hunting section . Some of the guys were shooting a shot a day, at random distances, at steel targets just to see how their rifle shot with a cold bore.

Other guys posted hits on coyotes in the 7oo yd range with a cold bore, another shot a rock chuck almost twice that far. No doubt a little luck is involved but some guys are lucky alot.

Hal

 

[mikecr]

Or, it is the naysayers who are lost in delusion about accurate hunting rifles.
We're not talking about assault weapons here..
'Sub-MOA' is in no way accurate from a hunting rifle. This is not accuracy in ANY rifle.

About it being out of a builder's control?
I think you're wrong. A builder controls what he sends out the door.
Here's another example builder who might do what the customer is asking for: http://www.quarterminutemagnums.com/inventory_accurate_custom_hunting_rifles.asp
It's not impossible, they might do it.

I could(but won't) sell a pure hunting gun I use for varmints -as a kit. This, just as BR guns are often sold in turn-key packages.
I could sell the gun, scope mounted, bipods/monopod/sling mounted, dies, all reloading components for a barrel, load & procedure, and cleaning supplies & procedure for 1/2moa cold-clean-bore accuracy to 500yds off the dirt in 223rem. Guaranteed, reproducible, and with witnesses and pics demonstrating. It would be expensive, but not relatively so.
A lot of us here could, and so can a gunbuilder who knows how to build hunting guns, and that 'sub-moa' represents only a starting point in development.

 

[SuperiorRifles]

First off thanks for all of the replies! My question was: Is there a different method of machining as far as building a gun for cold bore accuracy? Is it any different than building one for a another use? I already know that a hunting set up is different that a competition rifle. Lol. I know that you can map your first cold bore shot day after day and learn where that first shot lands. That I fully understand. But can you (by a different machining technique i.e. bolt clearance, truing the receiver differently etc...) change how the first cold bore shot would land? I don't think it is any different (again I'm talking about machining practices) than one that I would build for long range hunting. You would just have to shoot and learn where this particular gun shoots the first cold bore shot and adjust your load ACCORDING to the cold bore shot and not the regular (5 shot warm bore groups). And I haven't heard anyone tell me any different so far which confirms my own belief. I'm not say that this method doesn't exist, I'm saying that no one has stated any other machining technique. And me sending my customer to another gun builder would NEVER be a good business model!! I have complete confidence in my work, it was a: lets just see if maybe someone out there has developed a method for building guns for the purpose of cold bore shots and how they can actually change how the cold bore shots act. (again by a different machining method not by loading)

Thanks again for everyone's comments.
Ryan

 

[alf]

I firmly believe that no matter how quality a gun is built, what you're chasing is entirely up to the barrel. It is possible though.

Here's a cold bore, three shot group at 1K from my hunting gun in 6x47 Lapua:

1000 yard set-up:

Cold bore group, no sighters, almost zero wind:

Nine inch group and zilch for vertical....I'll take that.....

 

[SuperiorRifles]

I firmly believe that no matter how quality a gun is built, what you're chasing is entirely up to the barrel. It is possible though.

Here's a cold bore, three shot group at 1K from my hunting gun in 6x47 Lapua:

1000 yard set-up:

Cold bore group, no sighters, almost zero wind:

Nine inch group and zilch for vertical....I'll take that.....

Was this on three separate days? How long in between each shot? Great shooting at any rate!!

 

[alf]

Was this on three separate days? How long in between each shot? Great shooting at any rate!!

Three in a row...load and shoot.

The logistics of driving and setting all this stuff up each day for one shot a day is never going to happen.

 

[mikecr]

alf, I'm struggling to make a correlation in your post to the subject of cold barrel accuracy in hunting trim.
To me, your test here demonstrated low ES(possibly), and producing .86moa of precision(with 3 shots off a bench & benchrest).
So what was the cold bore shot accuracy?
In other words, what was your 1st shot POI w/resp to your POA?

The other two shots didn't matter, you only get one.