Water..this is what the manufacturer says.
CLR for CARBON
- Thread starter antelopedundee
- Start date
Water..this is what the manufacturer says.
divingin
Gold $$ Contributor
Cylinder flutes?
Look folks, I was simply stating my experience and opinion, that’s all. Feel free to do whatever you like. After all, it’s your rifle. I have used lots of chemicals on stainless steel in the past and have NEVER had an issue, but I am very, very anal about my work and extremely careful. I have seen what can happen if the metal is not completely washed of all chemical, by what I have seen other Techs do. If a person were to completely neutralize and wash away all traces of chemical, it should do just fine.
Scott
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Possible too I suppose. Speaking of flutes, check out twistedbarrel.com
I wonder if he can do anything with a barrel still in the action. I'll be leaving for Douglas tomorrow, but not sure I'd have time even for a wait job.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I recently tried CLR to help remove some very tough "baked-on" carbon in the grooves of a relatively old barrel that extended 6-8 inches and started started a couple inches forward of the throat. This was done in a barrel that had already undergone my normal cleaning process, and one which I didn't particularly care what happened. The CLR did absolutely nothing to the hard carbon. It didn't remove even a single speck of it.
Knowing something about the chemistry of the active ingredients in CLR, which are just weak organic acids and a surfactant, I suspect it might work just fine with the typical carbon we remove during cleaning. But so do a lot of commercial carbon cleaners that are far less harsh than the CLR. In my hands, the CLR did not remove anything that Boretech C4 carbon remover left behind. So if you're expecting CLR to take really hard, baked-in carbon at the bottom of the rifling grooves, I think you'll be disappointed. No substance known to man will actually "dissolve" the kind of long-term buildup of hard carbon that escapes regular barrel cleaning procedures. To remove that kind of carbon buildup requires some kind of vigorous mechanical action in addition to the cleaning agent(s). To that end, I treated this barrel with KG-2 following the CLR and the first two patches came out absolutely black. However, even KG-2 did not remove all of the carbon deposits.
FWIW - the only chemicals known that will actually "dissolve" that type of carbon are contact are extremely strong oxidizing compounds such as nitric acid. In fact, they are really not "dissolving" the carbon, they are chemically attacking it and converting it to a different chemical form that actually can be dissolved and/or rinsed away. I've actually considered treating this barrel with nitric acid. Many years ago, I very badly burned some food I was preparing in a large and expensive stainless steel saucepan. The bottom was completely coated with the kind of hard black and shiny carbon you find after routine cleaning with commercial carbon removal products. No amount of scrubbing with detergents/cleansers would even touch it. As I believed the pan was already "ruined", I brought some nitric acid home from the lab and poured it into the pan. The carbon literally disappeared before my eyes, with some yellowish + whitish foul-smelling smoke given off, which is typical of nitric acid oxidation reactions. It did not damage the stainless steel cooking surface of the pan in any way. To this day, I am still using that saucepan.
I have given some consideration to treating this barrel, which is old and not of much use anyway, with nitric acid, just to see whether it would have any effect. I suspect a very quick treatment with nitric acid and a nylon brush would completely remove the hard carbon, without damaging the barrel. After all, as was recently pointed out to me by a friend, nitric acid has been used for many years to treat the surface of stainless steel parts in a process known as "passivation", under far more harsh conditions. Unfortunately, I do not have ready access to concentrated nitric acid as I once did, so obtaining some might be problematic. Nonetheless, I suspect it might work like it did with the stainless steel saucepan. The only downside is that I don't remember the concentration of nitric I used in the pan. Concentrated nitric acid stocks purchased for laboratory work are typically around 15M. I can't imagine I used the straight concentrated acid, but I just don't remember the specific details of how I did it, only that it worked. Fortunately, if I manage to find some nitric acid, it would be easy enough to start with a dilute solution and work up in concentration, if necessary. As you might imagine, nitric acid is not a carbon-removal treatment I would recommend anyone to be using, especially on a regular basis, where it might damage the barrel. Further, concentrated nitric acid is some very nasty stuff for anyone that doesn't know how to handle it. However, as an experiment to determine whther it can remove really hard carbon on an old and worn barrel to which I don't really care what happens, it wouldn't be an issue.
Knowing something about the chemistry of the active ingredients in CLR, which are just weak organic acids and a surfactant, I suspect it might work just fine with the typical carbon we remove during cleaning. But so do a lot of commercial carbon cleaners that are far less harsh than the CLR. In my hands, the CLR did not remove anything that Boretech C4 carbon remover left behind. So if you're expecting CLR to take really hard, baked-in carbon at the bottom of the rifling grooves, I think you'll be disappointed. No substance known to man will actually "dissolve" the kind of long-term buildup of hard carbon that escapes regular barrel cleaning procedures. To remove that kind of carbon buildup requires some kind of vigorous mechanical action in addition to the cleaning agent(s). To that end, I treated this barrel with KG-2 following the CLR and the first two patches came out absolutely black. However, even KG-2 did not remove all of the carbon deposits.
FWIW - the only chemicals known that will actually "dissolve" that type of carbon are contact are extremely strong oxidizing compounds such as nitric acid. In fact, they are really not "dissolving" the carbon, they are chemically attacking it and converting it to a different chemical form that actually can be dissolved and/or rinsed away. I've actually considered treating this barrel with nitric acid. Many years ago, I very badly burned some food I was preparing in a large and expensive stainless steel saucepan. The bottom was completely coated with the kind of hard black and shiny carbon you find after routine cleaning with commercial carbon removal products. No amount of scrubbing with detergents/cleansers would even touch it. As I believed the pan was already "ruined", I brought some nitric acid home from the lab and poured it into the pan. The carbon literally disappeared before my eyes, with some yellowish + whitish foul-smelling smoke given off, which is typical of nitric acid oxidation reactions. It did not damage the stainless steel cooking surface of the pan in any way. To this day, I am still using that saucepan.
I have given some consideration to treating this barrel, which is old and not of much use anyway, with nitric acid, just to see whether it would have any effect. I suspect a very quick treatment with nitric acid and a nylon brush would completely remove the hard carbon, without damaging the barrel. After all, as was recently pointed out to me by a friend, nitric acid has been used for many years to treat the surface of stainless steel parts in a process known as "passivation", under far more harsh conditions. Unfortunately, I do not have ready access to concentrated nitric acid as I once did, so obtaining some might be problematic. Nonetheless, I suspect it might work like it did with the stainless steel saucepan. The only downside is that I don't remember the concentration of nitric I used in the pan. Concentrated nitric acid stocks purchased for laboratory work are typically around 15M. I can't imagine I used the straight concentrated acid, but I just don't remember the specific details of how I did it, only that it worked. Fortunately, if I manage to find some nitric acid, it would be easy enough to start with a dilute solution and work up in concentration, if necessary. As you might imagine, nitric acid is not a carbon-removal treatment I would recommend anyone to be using, especially on a regular basis, where it might damage the barrel. Further, concentrated nitric acid is some very nasty stuff for anyone that doesn't know how to handle it. However, as an experiment to determine whther it can remove really hard carbon on an old and worn barrel to which I don't really care what happens, it wouldn't be an issue.
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MikeMcCasland
Team Texas F-T/R
Greg - Interesting about your experience.
I started playing with CLR recently, using an old bottle we've had for years for household chores etc. I've used that stuff on barrels, muzzle breaks, etc. and it absolutely does work like magic (at least in my testing).
That said, I ran out of that old bottle a few weeks ago and ordered some more from Amazon (I'm talking about the little handle/jug bottle for ~$10). The newer CLR that I received doesn't seem to perform the same.
I emailed CLR about it, asking if they'd made any changes to the formula. They told me they hadn't, and I shouldn't clean guns with it because it will ruin them.
Not sure what conclusion to draw from that, but I have seen it work quite well.
I started playing with CLR recently, using an old bottle we've had for years for household chores etc. I've used that stuff on barrels, muzzle breaks, etc. and it absolutely does work like magic (at least in my testing).
That said, I ran out of that old bottle a few weeks ago and ordered some more from Amazon (I'm talking about the little handle/jug bottle for ~$10). The newer CLR that I received doesn't seem to perform the same.
I emailed CLR about it, asking if they'd made any changes to the formula. They told me they hadn't, and I shouldn't clean guns with it because it will ruin them.
Not sure what conclusion to draw from that, but I have seen it work quite well.
Yes, I agree and for this reason I clean after each day of shooting whilst the barrel is still warm. Patches bring out a grey slurry. Then flush the bore with brake cleaner, run a couple drops Lock-Ease down the bore on a patch on a PH jag, allow to dry and good to go again.
After shooting right at the bench I'll run a few patches with Ballistol , it gets almost all the carbon out then I run a wet patch of Ballistol for the ride home At home I use old reliable Hoppes #9 until clean , then again with Ballistol but make sure you remove it before shooting. Hoppes and then dry clean patches . Never have carbon buildup.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
As I understand it there is one chemical that will dissolve carbon, but I cannot recommend its use in the normal way we handle barrel cleaning products....
carbon tetrachloride. No, I am not running out to find a source, and even if I had some I would not open and use it...too dangerous.
carbon tetrachloride. No, I am not running out to find a source, and even if I had some I would not open and use it...too dangerous.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Boyd - carbon tetrachloride is fully halogenated methane (CCl4), the fourth in the series including chloromethane, dichloromethane, and chloroform. Although they are all very good non-polar organic solvents, I doubt any of them will completely dissolve hard carbon to a much better extent than any other good non-polar solvent; certainly not such that it can be simply wiped out with a few patches wetted in CCl4. None of these are what I would call exceptionally "dangerous" solvents, as long as they are used with proper precaution; i.e. kept off the skin, and used with sufficient ventilation. Then again, I used to use large quantities of solvents such as carbon tet, chloroform, and methylene chloride for many years in the laboratory, and all of them are perceived much differently in today's litigious society than they used to be, so YMMV.
The problem with oxidized carbon is that even non-polar solvents including halogenated hydrocarbons like carbon tet, , chloroform, methylene chloride, benzene, toluene, xylene, hexane, petroleum ethers, etc., really don't "dissolve" carbon. Some can help get it into suspension (i.e. particulates suspended in solution, but not actually dissolved), where it can be more easily removed, but they don't really dissolve it. They may also soften hard carbon deposits slightly, as an aid to their removal by mechanical means. I am experimenting with that notion right now and if successful, I will report the results here. For similar reasons, there really aren't any good organic solvents that actively dissolve graphite or diamond. So there isn't really anything available in terms of a true solvent that will simply dissolve the carbon deposits in a barrel and allow them to be easily and completely wiped away with patches. Frankly, even patches wetted with nothing more than ordinary tap water will actually remove a very significant amount of loose carbon as an initial barrel cleaning step. It is the hard carbon deposits that are impervious to most typical commercial carbon removers that are the problem.
As I am learning, effective removal of hard carbon deposits really requires one of two things as I mentioned above; either a "solvent" or reagent mixture that also chemically modifies the carbon deposits so the resultant breakdown products can be truly dissolved, such as nitric acid, or by using some mechanical means. The issue with the first of these approaches is that it takes a very strong oxidizing agent to break down carbon deposits, which may be physically hazardous and may also potentially damage the barrel steel. The problems involved with using some mechanical means is that depending on the severity of the carbon deposits, it might require significant mechanical effort to remove them, and excessive use of abrasive bore cleaners is also undesirable over the long term. Obviously, it is far better to never let carbon accumulate to any appreciable degree in the first place, but this particular barrel has already reached that point and there's nothing I can do about it except to experiment with it and hopefully find a way to clean it, and learn how to better prevent such a buildup in the future.
A waste of time and money to buy that unless you want to do some other kind of cleaning.
divingin
Gold $$ Contributor
https://www.laballey.com/collections/nitric-acid
Bunch of different concentrations available. You'll have to check if they'll ship to you though.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
0.1M nitric acid is a fairly weak solution. Concentrated nitric acid runs at around 15M. As I stated previously, I don't recall what concentration I used to clean the SS saucepan in which I had badly burned the food. I may have diluted it slightly, but if I did, I'd imagine I wouldn't have gone lower than 1 to 2M, and probably more like 5 to 7M. Again, nitric acid is pretty nasty stuff; it generates a fair amount of really acrid vapor and just isn't something I recommend someone that isn't well-versed in how to use it to try out as a barrel cleaning agent. If I wasn't familiar with its use, I wouldn't even consider doing it. Concentrated nitric acid is available from various chemical supply companies, but they may not sell it to private individuals. I haven't actually tried to order any, but typically hazardous chemicals ordered for a laboratory fall under the auspices of the institution's hazardous chemical licenses and permits. I am trying out other approaches to remove the hard carbon in this barrel, so I am hopeful that the use nitric acid will never be necessary, even though I think it might actually work if done properly.
jelenko
Gold $$ Contributor
Yeah. We used it in high school chemistry. Anyone who got some splashed on them had a nasty burn.
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